I like how you amen a story that compares your football program to a "snotty kid"...
fosterkeats
· 5 months ago
Jarret Lee just threw another interception returned for a TD...
TigerEducated
· 5 months ago
Utah just scored again, too...
Oh, by the way...What time does Alabama play in the College World Series? LOL!
War_Eagle_Atlanta
· 5 months ago
A subject like this would be perfect if we could incorporate polls into the thread. All and all, I think the punishment fits the crime.
OU_Ron
· 5 months ago
I'm not sure I agree that the punishment fits the crime......I still believe the the team as a whole is being punished for what a few did.....
I know a punishment has to be given, but I think the athletes that did the wrong should lose their ships and be kicked off the team....but that's just me....what do I know !!
War_Eagle_Atlanta
· 5 months ago
Good notion, Ron, but remember, these violations occured 2,3,4 years ago. A lot of the athletes, well, I don't want to say graduated, but exhausted their eligibility since then. But I like that idea.
OU_Ron
· 5 months ago
WEA, not saying this is the correct thing to do, but there has to be a way of punishing the guilty without punishing everyone..........in the case of the players moving on one, two, or three years ago, then maybe scholarships could be taken away now for as many years that they have been gone.........i don't know, but there has to be a way without punishing all..
Zac
· 5 months ago
I fully agree. I have never been an advocate of the "bad apple" syndrome.
What people need to realize, at least in this case, there is no statute of limitations; that is, it doesn't apply. It wasn't determined until recently that a "crime" (in this case a violation) was committed 2, 3, or 4 years ago. Therefore, the clock wasn't ticking then; rather, it's only just begun. My point: Bama should go after those athletes who pulled this stunt and make them pay part of the fine. That's what attorneys are for. You did the crime; you do the time; or in this case, you pay the fine. Just a thought...
gatorhippy
· 5 months ago
Well, Ronnie...
In the individual sports; like tennis and track; the individual's involved records are affected with any points earned also deleted from team scores and the team's placements will be adjusted accordingly...
That's not possible in team sports...
Team sports require an overall effort...
Football is often referred to as the "ultimate" team sport...
On the field, you live and die as a team...
And are therefore reprimanded accordingly...
OU_Ron
· 5 months ago
GH, I know you win or lose as a team, or live or die as a team as you put it.....and I know that the punishment is needed, but there is a hundred plus players on a team and 90% of em didn't do anything....it just seems to me that the punishment should be placed on the one's that did the wrong.......hell, I don't know...it's not my team anyway..
gatorhippy
· 5 months ago
And they were punished seperately, Ron, as I pointed out to Zac above...
The vacating of the games has to do with institutional penalties...
As does the further probation...
It's noted in the NCAA report on this matter that there would not have a loss of wins had Bama not been on their second round of breaking the rules while on probation...
The 'repeat offender" stigma has alot to do with it...
Zac
· 5 months ago
GH, I'm not certain what it was you specifically pointed out to me, but let's look it over anyway.
Yes, College Football is a team sport. In order to be successful on the filed, that means working hard, practicing hard, and doing it together; i.e. team play, knowing one's assignments, stepping up when others are down, etc. All well and good.
That said, what of an individual's personal life. Athletes may study in groups with teammates; they may even attend classes in groups with teammates. They don't pass or fail their classes as teammates; they do it as individuals. (I'd throw in a side jibe at FSU, but I still want Kevin to like me.)
The personal life of each athlete is a failure or a success in the same way. Yes, some do influence others, but for the most part the majority of athletes get their diplomas, buy their own cloths & cars, and don't commit crimes or go to jail. Some of the less conspicuous, less glamorous players even go on to the NFL, where they somehow manage to remain just as inconspicuous and unglamorous throughout their career.
Those athletes involved with NCAA violations are generally involved before they get to campus, before they meet the team, before they begin relationships with teammates and most of the coaches. Yes, some things occur after their arrival; the majority does not. If that's the case, then, how is it the team, of which few are likely cognizant of the situation, should go down with the bad apple. Simply put, it's unfair; it lacks wisdom. It may be the status quo, but that don't make it right. JMHO...
gatorhippy
· 5 months ago
I understand where you're coming from, Zac...
But in team sports thats the way it is...
Use an ineligible player and you will lose a victory...
Do it knowingly and you forfeit...
You can't simply take Coffey's rushing yards and touchdowns and remove them from the game and see where the team stands then because it doesn' account for the blocking and other intangibles he did...
Vacating and forfeiture is the only option...
Crappy for those that followed the rules...
Perfectly fair though, IMHO...
Zac
· 5 months ago
GH, I could see your point regarding Coffey's rushing yards and touchdowns if we were talking recruiting violations. We're not. We're not talking cheating on exams to maintain his GPA, thus keeping him eligible. We're not even talking performance enhancing drugs. At the worst we're talking an entrepreneurial embezzlement scheme, provided he took money. If he didn't take any money, then, he was trying to help a bud, albeit in an off-handed way. I don't see that as a lock for taking victories away from the team. While that may be the rule, while that may be "the way it is," that doesn't make it right.
If your example, Mr. Coffey, was involved nothing he did in this regard impacted his play on the field; it didn't make him a better athlete. It's for this reason I maintain my opinion: The punishment don’t fit the crime.
TigerEducated
· 5 months ago
I think the way to truly punish a program is to with-hold their SEC TV & Bowl Payout Money...
Watch that AD squirm when you divvy up their share 12 ways & hand it out to other Member Institutions.
That's about a million apiece...Which essentially means you can double your recruiting budget that year and make Alabama bleed monetarily.
THAT would impact an AD and truly become a negative deterrent against violations & induce improved vigilance & compliance.
Vacation of victories? Sounds as limp-wristed as it reads...
OU_Ron
· 5 months ago
Here's an article that can explan it way better than me.......other players don't deserve the punishment.
I have to agree, TE. Selling those books for profit didn't make those players better athletes. Taking victories away makes absolutely no sense to me at all. That said, selling the books as they did, in my opinion makes the culpable, and therefore, especially since they made money, they should have to pay it back, or at least a percentage of the fine levied against Bama.
facebook-1429062693
· 5 months ago
C-Dogg is back Zac...was gonna wait til football season, but i figured i'd get warmed up now....
TigerEducated
· 5 months ago
What's UP!
gatorhippy
· 5 months ago
Awww yeah...
My man...
What's been happenin'?
I was perusing some old threads a few days ago and made me wonder where you'd been...
facebook-1429062693
· 5 months ago
Gatorhippy....TigerEducated....nice to be back. I've peeked in every few weeks to see some threads....but i'm back now.
Zac
· 5 months ago
Woo Hoo!!! Great have'n ya back. So, tell me, is it the women on the other thread that made ya decide now was the time?
"BC"
· 5 months ago
not one student-athlete made a single dollar in this "scandal" every book was returned.
the players were able to get the books from the bookstore with their scholarship, but they got them for their friends. once their friends' classes were over, the books were returned.
the story is being twisted by the media outlets.
TigerEducated
· 5 months ago
The story isn't being twisted...The story is that the NCAA is afraid to actually levy any real punishment against your Football Program because of their earlier statements about it "staring down the barrel of a gun".
In actuality, its been staring down the barrel of a gun for 20 years...and its been cheating long before that...
Seriously...Do you think Albert Means...some BS Defensive Lineman from Memphis...You REALLY think he was the only kid that got paid for?
I mean, you want to talk about twisting reality...
Seriously, dude...
gatorhippy
· 5 months ago
IF you believe that there wasn't any money made on book "rentals"...
You're alot more gullible than I thought...
gatorhippy
· 5 months ago
In the end it is Bama's responsibility as a school to monitor the issuing of these books...
This is why the institution is being punished...
Along with the fact that they were currently on probation as a repeat offender form 2002 while being on probation as a repeat offender from a violation 1999...
Bama_Babe
· 5 months ago
GH,
This is exactly why the punishment is what it is.
My response to you at the bottom of this thread was a little irrevelant. I was mistaken thinking you were one saying the punishment should have been worse.
gatorhippy
· 5 months ago
Bama is way ahead of you, Zac...
All SA's with eligibilty remaining that were involved in this are required to pay restitution in lieu of suspension or further loss of eligibility...
As well as...
The ones that abused it the tune of over 100 bucks were suspended and had to apply to the NCAA for reinstement of their eligibility...
Zac
· 5 months ago
What of the guys that graduated who were involved? (By the way, was this what you were referring to up yonder? Man, this format confuzzelz me lots!)
GeauxTigers0107
· 5 months ago
"I think the way to truly punish a program is to with-hold their SEC TV & Bowl Payout Money...
Best idea I've heard so far. The punishment amounts to a slap on the wrist. How long can you keep someone on probation before it's considered violated?
Geaux Tigers Geaux SEC
gatorhippy
· 5 months ago
I can agree with that...
As well as...
Rather than vacating the victories,, the NCAA should just go ahead and declare forfeitures instead...
If athletes were ineligible then there shouldn't be a problem with that...
"BC"
· 5 months ago
gotta agree with OU Ron here. when will the NCAA start punishing the guilty and not the innocent. these kids were intentionally stealing from the university. so because some kids found a loophole in the system to steal money, the football team should vacate wins and be put on probation for 3 years? how about the kids that stole be put in jail?
or when a rogue booster that hasn't stepped foot on campus in over a year slips a few $100 bills into a recruits hand in a handshake, 5 hours away, an entire football program gets the death penalty. unless said booster is affiliated with USC.
pretty ridiculous.
TigerEducated
· 5 months ago
By the time you're off probation, you'll have spent TWENTY ONE YEARS ON IT AS A FOOTBALL PROGRAM!
BC...Are you even 21 years old? Have you had a birthday party yet that wasn't held while Alabama wasn't on probation?
You guys should steal from the Masters...
"Alabama Football Probation: A Tradition Unlike Any Other"...
"BC"
· 5 months ago
......uhh yeah. haha. so anyway, how do you think the Alabama/LSU game is gonna shake out this season? my money's on Alabama at home.
TigerEducated
· 5 months ago
Again...BC...Have you had a birthday while Bama wasn't on probation?
Ever?
"BC"
· 5 months ago
woah. low blow. bahahaha put alabama on eternal probation for all i care. it's not like it's Alabama that's cheating. before it was a rogue booster (booster = random alabama grad), now it's athletes stealing money from the bookstore. i'm sure we'll get the death penalty for an Alabama fan buying the team a round of drinks after a big win. how do you expect me to take NCAA rulings as some kind of insult?
TigerEducated
· 5 months ago
Once again...Have you ever celebrated a birthday while Alabama was not on probation?
"BC"
· 5 months ago
hey man! wanna go golfing sunday? i hear the weather will be perfect for a day on the links.
TigerEducated
· 5 months ago
On two conditions:
1.) You answer my question.
2.) You somehow finangle Mike Price into our Threesome.
[Wait...that last part didn't come out right, LOL!]
Wardboy3
· 5 months ago
That so didn't come out right...but it was still funny as hell.
fosterkeats
· 5 months ago
I think Jarret Lee just threw another interception...
TigerEducated
· 5 months ago
At least we didn't have to pay him to throw it...
fosterkeats
· 5 months ago
Wow, with comebacks like that, you should replace Conan...
TigerEducated
· 5 months ago
My question is...Does the 2007 Florida State versus Alabama Football game now no longer exist?
The NCAA has disallowed either team from claiming a victory...So...What the heck?
Ben Prather
· 5 months ago
Vacating a win differs from forfeiting a game because the other team is not allowed to claim a win.
The wins will be present. Personally I don't really care how the book keepers mark the wins in the footnotes.
War_Eagle_Atlanta
· 5 months ago
That's a damn good question.
I think the victory should be assigned to Slippery Rock.
Zac
· 5 months ago
At least Louisiana-Monroe has nothing to worry about.
TigerEducated
· 5 months ago
You beat me to the punch...Damn you afternoon commute from Baton Rouge to Denham Springs!
Wardboy3
· 5 months ago
Good one.
gatorhippy
· 5 months ago
It exists as a loss for the 'Roids...
The books will just show they showed up in Jax and lost to nobody...
thakid11
· 5 months ago
chill chill people alabama is taking down the raining champs and you know it! Florida is done!!!
C-Dogg is back for those who remember me.... U guys made it easier to post thru facebook....
Ben Prather
· 5 months ago
People been asking about you all year.
Welcome back.
facebook-1429062693
· 5 months ago
Whats up Ben...i've been around...just got fed up with that Disqus crap. Figured it wasn't worth it...facebook acct makes it easier to post. Congrats on Utah's success this past season...i'm sure Bama never saw it coming. Looking forward to catching up with you all...and the people i don't know yet...
Ben Prather
· 5 months ago
It looks like facebook made a discus account for you.
If you go here you should be able to change your display name to whatever you want.
"BC"
· 5 months ago
READ THIS:
did any of you realize that not one student-athlete in this "scandal" pocketed a single dollar? the big CRIME here was getting textbooks for their friends, even though all of the textbooks were returned.
that's why this "slap on the wrist" is being considered over-the-top. it would be like checking out a book at the library with your library card, letting your friend read it, and then returning it.
SO, because a few players wanted to use their scholarship to get books for their friends, and return them after use, 21 wins must be vacated and the football team must be put on 3 years of probation, and a $40,000 fine must be paid.
TigerEducated
· 5 months ago
Did their friends have to pay for their books that their athlete friends got for them?
Your logic is elementary and so flawed, its ridiculous.
Let me break it down like this:
If I have $100, and I have it earmarked to buy a book for a class that is considered required reading, and then someone tells me, "Hey, I can get it for you for free."
You just gave them something that was essentially worth $100, and they could go spend that money on their cellphone bill, a bar tab, or really terrible haircuts like the one you're trying to cover with a hat in your avatar photo.
gatorhippy
· 5 months ago
TE, I'm pretty sure the bigger problem is that they get the $100 book and rent it out for the semester at $50 dollars...
Why else would a single athlete credit out nearly $4000 in books in one semester...
...or really terrible haircuts like the one you're trying to cover with a hat in your avatar photo...
I believe those are referred to as:
"Bammer Bangs"
Or my personal favorite...
"The Reverse Mullet"...
Which begs to question...
Does this mean that BC is "Party in the front & business in the back"?
gatorhippy
· 5 months ago
That's called "impermissible benefits" and " failure to monitor"...
Which is why the institution and programs are being punished...
It was their short sight that allowed students other than the scholarship athletes to receive books for free essentially...
OU_Ron
· 5 months ago
Here's a complete list of games that Bama will have to vacate...
I just don't get the NCAA. If your team goes 10-2 and makes it to a big bowl game each player gets a gift basket with a camcorder, wii, best buy gift certificate or something like that that is worth $500. Somehow that behavior is sanctioned and OK, but a player getting $200-$300 of textbooks is not OK.
How the heck does the NCAA morally justify the "gifts" doled out to players at big time bowls???
gatorhippy
· 5 months ago
Grover, those are considered "participation" awards and are limited to a maximum value of $500 by the management of the event...
The institution may also provide a participation award with a value of up to $350...
However, were a player to sell any part of that bowl gift package for cash while still in school it would constitute a violation of NCAA rules...
That's how schools can award Conference championship and national championship rings and why a player cnnot sell such an item until after leaving the school...
Individual awards from the Heisman down to the Key to the City that a player might receive also all have an allowable maximum limit in regards to the value/worth of the award...
All of the above are way different than ringing up nearly $4000 in textbooks in a semester to rent them out to classmates below their value...
Ramblin' Gator
· 5 months ago
An interesting opinion about the Alabama sanctions that mirrors the prevailing view of our current banking crisis...
Insert Southern Cal or Ohio St and it's the same...
Ramblin' Gator
· 5 months ago
...and Notre Dame.
Clemson_Joe
· 5 months ago
Did anyone else catch that Nick Montana (son of the greatest QB of all time) committed to Washington? Huge pickup for Sarkisian, but if that doesn't speak volumes about Charlie Weis, I don't know what does.
Ramblin' Gator
· 5 months ago
That is a slap in Weiss' face, but I also heard Montana was selected in the MLB draft and may not play NCAA football at all.
fosterkeats
· 5 months ago
There was NO MONEY involved... it was all done by "Account cards"... The athletes showed their cards and gave the bookstore worker a list of books to get, so they could "buy" any textbooks they needed...
I'm not justifying their actions, but, all they were doing were helping friends get books...
People are acting like this was worse than the ACADEMIC FRAUD at F$U, are you kidding me???
We'll see what the NCAA does with Soouthern Cal, which will be nothing b/c they control the west coast market, so the Trojans can pay off Reggie Bush, OJ Mayo, Leinart, et al... and don't have to worry about repercussions...
Did Ohio State get in one OUNCE of trouble for Maurice Clarrett??? Did they get in trouble for paying off those european players???
Alabama found out about it, suspended the players involved, and changed the policy as to how players get their books...
But some people are such "HATERS", that they're upset that they didn't get the Death Penalty, anyone who thinks that is what they dererve is a MORON.
At least Bama isn't low rent like F$U, who only cares about Bobby's wins and not the integrity of their program. If anyone was on the cusp of the death penalty, the Criminoles should be closest... The NCAA harps on academics, yet barely penalizes a school for ACADEMIC FRAUD... a f*cking joke...
War Eagle, if I had known you were gonna attempt comedy with that electric chair pic, I could have given you a picture of "Yellow Mama" from Atmore...
War_Eagle_Atlanta
· 5 months ago
Man, I looked for a pic of that damn thing, but couldn't find one on short notice. That's my only smart ass remark regarding this subject.
Okay, will the NCAA now take a look at USC? What is this, like day 1245 in their investigation?
I remember back in the early '80s, the Bham News used to publish a photo of "Yellow Mama" getting a fresh coat of paint... like it was some sort of deterant to put the electric chair in the paper, lol...
War_Eagle_Atlanta
· 5 months ago
Puts the 'hammer' in Yellowhammer...
Bama_Babe
· 5 months ago
Ok, call me a homer, but I just have one question.
Scenario: You have connections with the local club because a family member owns it. There's a really good band playing and there's a $20 cover charge. A few of your friends want to go, so you tell them, "Hey, I can put you on the list and you won't have to pay. I can also get you some free drinks so just come find me when y'all get there." You don't tell your family-member owner about this. You get your friends in and endless drinks for free, and your friends love you. So the next time a good band comes, you do it again. And again. Maybe again, but maybe you are smart enough to stop. You cheated the club hundred of dollars. If you realized it, then hopefully you were honorable and smart enough to stop. If you kept doing it, aware you were costing the club money, then you should be punished.
Same situation here, guys. IT HAPPENS. College kids don't always make the smartest decisions. We've all lived or are living our college days, so we know what it's like. People make dumb decision, especially if friends have some influence on them. Now here is my question I promised. DO YOU HONESTLY BELIEVE THAT THIS IS NOT HAPPENING IN OTHER PROGRAMS AROUND THE COUNTRY???? If you don't, then you are just plain ignorant. Sure, it may not be as severe, money wise, as it was with the 22 athletes at Alabama. They were just stupid. But I guarantee you there are "unintentional violators" in just about every program out there. Along with a few intentional ones. I'd bet a whole lot on it.
So please don't sit there and say the punishment should have been much worse for the program as a whole for what 7 football players did. The program as a whole committed no wrongdoings in this case. Postseason ban? Scholarship losses? DEATH PENALTY?? HA! That is so laughable, I'm out of laughs.
Sure, Alabama has to be about as angelic as angels until the probation runs out....according to TE, our grandchildren's grandchildren will still not have celebrated a birthday when Alabama isn't on probation....but whatever.
Let's just play ball, because my team has scholarships to give out and postseason games to play...does yours?
Disclaimer: This post is in no way justifying the actions of these athletes. What they did was wrong and punishable. This post is simply serving as a view from inside glasses that may or may not have a crimson tint.
OU_Ron
· 5 months ago
So what's your question BB...
Bama_Babe
· 5 months ago
Did you actually read my whole post? I think it is pretty clear, Ron. It is in all caps and follows the statement, "Now here is my question I promised."
OU_Ron
· 5 months ago
OK BB, sorry, I actually zipped right thru it.....but in my opinion, your scenario is not even close to being the same...the friends of the guy who let them in the bar and gave them free drinks, doesn't have anything to lose...where as 90% of Bama's team who didn't do anything, could have lost everything and did lose games won, plus probation.. Just because it goes on elsewhere...doesn't make it right...and I know you're not saying it's right...
Bama_Babe
· 5 months ago
Ok, I apologize guys. My scenario is not an exact analogy. Shoot me.
It wasn't supposed to be an example exactly like this case. The point was to show how SIMILARITIES of the situation (finding loop holes to avoid paying - no matter what is at risk) happen all the time, and how easy it is to get caught up in it.
People were saying how the punishment should have been worse, and I was trying to not-so-simply say that the punishment is appropriate. I believe the violations, for themselves, deserves less than 3 years probation...but the monitoring wasn't executed properly, so it deserves what it got - nothing more. Give credit to Alabama for speaking up and acting as soon as it was discovered in 2007. It could have been much worse.
Again, I am in no way justifying the actions of these athletes.
Huxley Hofmann
· 5 months ago
BB, that is nowhere near the same situation...
Bama_Babe
· 5 months ago
Mr. Hofmann,
Sure it's not the best analogy, but if you don't get all technical, it actually is. Yeah, in my scenario you weren't actually "stealing" something. The main point is you are cheating the system of money - aware or unaware.
That's what this case was about, right?
Look, the point of my post was to say that this is not as bad a violation as all of you think. Therefore, the punishment should not have been more than a slap on the wrist - as it was. If you actually think the NCAA should have taken scholarships and put a postseason ban on the team for what a few ignorant athletes did, then you are just as ignorant as them. And don't be surprised if something like this pops up in another program...because like I said, it happens elsewhere. If someone else gets caught for this, thank Alabama.
fosterkeats
· 5 months ago
What gets me is that NO MONEY was exchanged...
Tim Floys paid OJ Mayo OUT OF HIS OWN POCKET... Reggie Bush & his family were GIVEN A F*CKING HOUSE!!!
Just wait and see, the NCAA will say Tim Floyd "acted alone", and since he resigned(and LA is the 2nd largest media market, so we can't piss them off), then all's well...
FYI: Paul Dee was AD of Miami, and they were put on probation TWICE during his tenure, so why the f*ck is he on the infractions committee??? B/c he knows what to look for???
The NCAA is the biggest group of hypocrites next to Washington DC...
Bitter??? Yep, darn near ate her...
gatorhippy
· 5 months ago
Do you honestly think that a kid rings up $4000 in books and then doesn't charge a "half-price" rental fee?
You might be as naive as old Bama Locks up there...
fosterkeats
· 5 months ago
When I was on Bama's baseball team as a Frosh, we broght in our "ACT Card" with our schedule on it and they got our books, I don't know how it's changed since then, but there was no way to corrupt it back then...
But "Naive"???
Do you actually believe that all those Gators who have been arrested and had charges "dropped" were actually innocent???
gatorhippy
· 5 months ago
Nope...
But, of course, the NCAA would have no jurisdiction in such matters anyway...
As well as, criminal proceedings aren't always fair or right...
Kinda like life...
And in addition...
Charges of a criminal nature aren't always dropped due to innocence but often because of lack of evidence or witnesses and/or their credibility...
Nor do I fully believe that within whatever time frame it's been since you played "boringball" there that Bama would have at one time required a student identification or account card of some sort to pick up books and then all of the sudden stopped requiring it...
It doesn't appear you have even bothered to read the actual report...
Perhaps you should take a look at it and then come back and state your case when you've familiarized yourself with the actual situation...
gatorhippy
· 5 months ago
Actually no. BamaBabe...
It's not about cheating the university out of money at all...
The case is about impermissible benfits and failure to monitor the program...
Free drinks and booty shakin' have nothing to do with it...
In addition...
I for one think the punishment is right on considering the double repeat offender label...
Had there not been that factor, the NCAA would have laid out a mere probationary period...
As noted in its report...
Have you even read that yet?
And, no, BB...
It doesn't happen everywhere else...
Can't speak for other programs, but I can for UF...
And the kids there pick up their books from their academic advisors...
Not free roam at the bookstore...
Which effectively prevents things like this from happening...
Zac
· 5 months ago
Now, all of this inspires an interesting question. Why is it, it's not OK with the NCAA for an athlete to obtain free books and given them or rent them to whomever, yet, the NCAA has nothing to say about athlete DUI's, gun violence, bar fights, underage drinking or gambling, etc? I mean, if a coach gives a prospective recruit a ball cap, fountain pen, T-Shirt, or heaven forbid - cab fare, that's a violation. BUT, if the kid plays by the rules and is recruited fair & square, only to commit vehicular manslaughter on his way home from practice, or give his girlfriend a bloody nose, the NCAA has nothing to say about it. Strange...
gatorhippy
· 5 months ago
The NCAA would if the crime was originated or fostered by the institution or one of it's members...
Remember one of Colorado's charges including providing alcohol to recruits...
However, the NCAA isn't the legal system or the cops...
Simply the agency monitoring athletics...
One has nothing to do with the other really...
But should they get involved in that aspect of athletes, coaches and staff?
Should they provide a policy that prevents athletes and coaches from participating while a case is open to investigation or a hearing and trial pending?
fosterkeats
· 5 months ago
If the NCAA WAS issuing penalities on crimes, arrests, etc... The Gators would be at the top of the penalized list...
But I digress...
So you actually read the entire Alabama probation report??? If so, do you have a life???
Were you even born when Charlie Pell & Galen Hall almost got your Gators the death penalty???
gatorhippy
· 5 months ago
If the NCAA WAS issuing penalities on crimes, arrests, etc... The Gators would be at the top of the penalized list...
It's only 15 pages and about a thirty minute read...
Of course, for a Bama man I understand that it might take a day or two to get through it given it's not illustrated and contains some big words like "and" & "the"...
And yes, I remember quite vividly the entire Pell and Hall sagas...
The difference being I'm not still whining about how unfair it is and how the NCAA is picking on the Gates...
Because it wasn't unfair and they weren't picking on them...
Bama & FSU need to stop crying and simply stand up and take their punishment with dignity...
Not like a sniveling cowards...
TigerEducated
· 5 months ago
My name is TE, & I approve of this message.
In all seriousness, Hipster, the oldest of these Bammer Fans were-perhaps-in Kindergarten the last time Alabama wasn't on probation for violations...It's a way of life for them...
They don't understand because they have some undeserved sense of Entitlement to success. Any attempts on their part to attain advantages over other schools, violate NCAA rules & regulations, etc., is viewed merely as Standard Operating Procedure.
Conversely, any attempt by anyone-Phil Fulmer, the NCAA, Federal, State & Local authorities-to reign in their illicit and/or in some cases illegal behavior is simply thought of as bitter attempts by lesser beings to tug at Superman's Cape...
Rules do not apply to Alabama, and anyone who believes differently is obviously unhinged...
fosterkeats
· 5 months ago
UGA is as out of control as your Gators... The difference is that Jesus Boy Richt isn't making excuses and whining to the media like Oscar Meyer...
"Sniveling cowards"???
What are you talking about???
Are you referring to Jeremy Foley whining about the Orlando paper's REPORTING of the Gators who were arrested???
If Foley wants to control the media, tell him to take his program to North Korea or Venezuela where there IS no free media... Then he can have birthday cake & ice cream headlines every day...
Let's move on, shall we???
gatorhippy
· 5 months ago
I think you might be getting Foley confused with the TK media control of the Noles Cheatergate...
Ever notice that you don't see alot of coverage on that?
I'm in the Orlando area and read that paper daily...
Never seen what you're talking about in regards to Foley...
Link it up, please...
fosterkeats
· 5 months ago
I was looking for it, I think it was the Ft Myers paper that ran a story about the Florida arrests that pissed off Foley, but I can't find it...
You're right, not the Orlando paper...
Bama_Babe
· 5 months ago
Over the last 4 years...
Of Georgia's 30, only 4 were felonies.
Of Florida's 21, 9 were felonies.
Even the FSU "Criminoles" have less felony arrests than your almighty Gators.
Just sayin'.
Oh, and I'm not one to whine and say the NCAA is picking on Alabama. If you do something wrong, you should be punished.
TigerEducated
· 5 months ago
I'm glad your perspective is here, B_B...Seriously...
Wait...Should this be in the Women's Poster's Thread?
gatorhippy
· 5 months ago
And Bama has been on probation for the last 21 years for major violations...
Florida hasn't seen probation in nearly 20...
To quote you, BB dear...
Just sayin'...
Bama_Babe
· 5 months ago
I wasn't comparing Alabama and Florida.
You said Georgia had the most criminals, and I was just stating that Florida, while having less overall criminals, had more felons.
That's all.
TigerEducated
· 5 months ago
First off, I really appreciate the use of the metaphor here. I'm a fan of the usage of metaphors because, quite frankly, I use a helluva lot of them, myself. At any rate, I'm digressing off into a tangent, so let me veer back onto course here...
Being young and dumb and breaking the rules does not absolve you from breaking the rules. There's no real way around that. However, I not only empathize, but sympathize-as you are correct in assuming that all of us have been there before.
Again, to reiterate: Breaking the rules is breaking the rules.
As a secondary point to respond to this, I have asked around, and LSU's program is pretty standard. The AA's & tutors handle books, and there is no opportunity for the SA's to game the system.
As Gatorhippy has stated previously, it does not happen at Florida, either.
So, the last two National Champions-and as an aside, the last two Conference Champions in the SEC-do not operate like this.
If you'd like to mention your program in the same breath as those two for on the field accomplishments, don't act as if its okay to not be on their same level in terms of what you ask for in the way of off the field decision making on the part of your student athletes, nevermind your Compliance & Monitoring.
By the way, I definitely mention Alabama in the same breath as LSU & Florida. I hold your team to the same standard I hold mine to. I'd rightfully excoriate any dumb decisions or behavior on any of my team's hijinks, as well.
So, to use the argument of "Everyone's jumping off the bridge; why can't I?" is really not going to get a whole lot of traction with any rational observer.
Secondly, I have never said that you all should receive the Death Penalty over this problem. The Gadsden City deal is what your program should receive the Death Penalty for. But, to use your term, "whatever."
I think that's a simple overstatement on your part. No offense taken-on any of this, really, as I dish out a lot, and I can definitely take my fair share (Hey, we went 8-5 and lost at home to you guys, after all).
To go one further, I find it honestly really humorous that you would take such a damning fact-that your fellow Bama fans like BC have not actually seen a sunrise in their entire time on this Earth without your football program being on probation for violations that involve your football program-and act as if I'm overstating or reaching when pointing it out.
It's a fact. Your program will have been on probation for TWENTY ONE YEARS when its all said and done. Not 21 years total in its existence. Not 21 since they started handing out probation. Not 21 since the NCAA came into existence.
They have been on probation for football related issues FOR TWENTY ONE STRAIGHT YEARS. There's no need for me to exaggerate a sad fact like that.
For you to overstate that fact as if its "no big deal" is laughable, boo.
Your program's past is dirty as hell. The current isn't exactly squeaky clean. The future-I believe-will bear more fruit from that same branch. You need to simply own up to it. If for nothing else, then to simply move past it & the most recent tales of Crimson colored woe your program's inflicted upon itself.
It's almost as if you'd want us to believe that Albert Means was the only player in the History of Alabama Football who was paid to attend. I mean, a backup DL that wasn't even close to being the most coveted player in that signing class got paid SIX FIGURES to sign?
Mid-Round MLB draftee's don't get paid that much money to sign professional baseball contracts.
I'm digressing, & while you may laugh at this, I definitely don't want to come off as mean-spirited, but perhaps being a history major, or just a few years old than you, coupled with me being a fan of another program that's a hated rival of yours (and believe me, I hated Bama long before Nick took the job; its just that you were so damn irrelevant before he got there for years before), I look at things in a more big picture perspective. I draw conclusions off of the entire picture. I don't do daisy chain logic.
But, your program's history of conjured up national titles, along with its more legitimate, if somewhat faded past of actual dominance, which was very real, is perhaps only equaled by egregious unethical behavior on the part of your program, its coaches, etc.
The tradition of cheating at Alabama is just as much of a lamentable fact as is your rich tradition of Championships & Victories. It soils & stains their legacy at every turn, in fact.
Bama_Babe
· 5 months ago
Wow. You sure you got it all out?
Ok, first of all, I was not saying that it happens everywhere. I said if you think it doesn't happen at institutions other than Alabama, you are stupid. Secondly, I certainly wasn't saying that because of it happening elsewhere, that it was okay. I did not, in any way, use the "Everyone's jumping off the bridge, so why can't I" argument. I never justified the wrongdoings of any athlete at the University of Alabama, and I clearly stated - several times - that the athletes were wrong and should have been punished accordingly.
I definitely mention Alabama in the same breath as the other top programs in the SEC. No textbook scandal or probation would change that. I was not talking about Florida or LSU when I said things like this happen elsewhere. So do not put words into my mouth, please.
Ok, TE. I have not lived a single day when Alabama has not been on probation. Is that what you want me to say? Is that really something I should be so ashamed of that I don't want to be an Alabama fan? Sure, it sucks. But do I get to attend every Alabama football game each fall? Do I get to wear my school colors proudly and talk football with everyone - you guys included - like it is my life?
I think so. Just like all of you who are fans of schools who haven't been on much probation, if any at all. So I don't see why you are bringing it up and something that should cripple me or turn me away from my school. It definitely sucks, and it's something that should be avoided. However, I can do nothing about it. As long as my football team can play on the field and win, I will continue breathing in the excitement that comes with being an Alabama fan. NOTHING will change that.
You need to simply own up to it. When have I denied it??
If nothing else, then to simply move past it.. Why do you think my attitude appears as if it is "no big deal"?? Because there is nothing anyone can do about it now. What happened, happened. I'm moving on.
And yes, you are right. I did laugh a few times while I read your post. But do not worry, you don't come off as mean-spirited...just someone who is full of hatred. But hatred exists all around college football, and as Bruce Pearl says (yes, I went that low) if you are popular, then you are not winning.
You are certainly wrong about your last point, TE. The years of probation do not hold a dark cloud over the years of dominance. The tradition at the University of Alabama isn't known as "cheating" and probation. Know why?
Because the tradition that is at the University of Alabama started WAAAAY before these 21 straight years of probation. The dominance came before then. YOUR university started being relevant in the college football world in the last 21 years, so you think those years matter more than the previous. I'm not one to "live in the past" so I will not go further. Sure Alabama might have been on probation for 21 straight years. But if you think the University of Alabama and its football program is going anywhere, you are mistaken. History repeats itself, right? If so, the only destination for Alabama is up.
I'm finished with the textbook issue. It's over and done with. Nothing can or will justify what happened, and nothing can be done about it now. So, unlike us Alabama fans are known to do, I'm focusing on the future. The past is the past, so bring on the 2009 season. Soon, please!
jake
· 5 months ago
Baba Babe,
TE makes a good point although I believe he put a bit too much of SEC emotion in his response to your original post.
After my read of your post, I perceived you defending others' likely argument that Bama should have received harsher punishments. Your reasoning rests almost solely on highlighting the same infractions at many other schools that have not been discovered. First, no one is saying that this type of conduct is not happening at other schools, but many can argue that it's not happening at their school. Second, arguing "People make dumb decision, especially if friends have some influence on them" really serves no purpose as a defense or justification. We all know people make dumb decisions and that's why regulations and laws are setup. If every school was doing this or just Bama, every student should be punished.
I applaud Bama's coming forward and reporting its violations. Let's be honest, though. Given Bama's past, that is the only reason the punishments were not harsher.
1Tomcat
· 5 months ago
Well written TE Do you believe that certain programs that have a history of infractions are probably more under the microscope-so to speak than others. Down here in the late seventies, it was like who wasn't dirty, and I'm not talking about text-books or tennis shoes-The competition between members of the old SWC schools to win at all cost, resulted in many publicly known infractions- It was kind of like general knowledge that certain Alums and contributers enticed recruits with generous gifts and that some programs were cleaner than others, but everybody was considered dirty to a certain extent. Now here we are thirty years later and you can't break wind without somekind of scandal. In this day and age of self-reporting I'm sure nothing is swept under the rug-right. The textbook thing aint nothing compared to other violations, not that it was excetable, but geeze- Bush free rent comes to mind
All Comments
Oh, by the way...What time does Alabama play in the College World Series? LOL!
I know a punishment has to be given, but I think the athletes that did the wrong should lose their ships and be kicked off the team....but that's just me....what do I know !!
What people need to realize, at least in this case, there is no statute of limitations; that is, it doesn't apply. It wasn't determined until recently that a "crime" (in this case a violation) was committed 2, 3, or 4 years ago. Therefore, the clock wasn't ticking then; rather, it's only just begun. My point: Bama should go after those athletes who pulled this stunt and make them pay part of the fine. That's what attorneys are for. You did the crime; you do the time; or in this case, you pay the fine. Just a thought...
In the individual sports; like tennis and track; the individual's involved records are affected with any points earned also deleted from team scores and the team's placements will be adjusted accordingly...
That's not possible in team sports...
Team sports require an overall effort...
Football is often referred to as the "ultimate" team sport...
On the field, you live and die as a team...
And are therefore reprimanded accordingly...
The vacating of the games has to do with institutional penalties...
As does the further probation...
It's noted in the NCAA report on this matter that there would not have a loss of wins had Bama not been on their second round of breaking the rules while on probation...
The 'repeat offender" stigma has alot to do with it...
Yes, College Football is a team sport. In order to be successful on the filed, that means working hard, practicing hard, and doing it together; i.e. team play, knowing one's assignments, stepping up when others are down, etc. All well and good.
That said, what of an individual's personal life. Athletes may study in groups with teammates; they may even attend classes in groups with teammates. They don't pass or fail their classes as teammates; they do it as individuals. (I'd throw in a side jibe at FSU, but I still want Kevin to like me.)
The personal life of each athlete is a failure or a success in the same way. Yes, some do influence others, but for the most part the majority of athletes get their diplomas, buy their own cloths & cars, and don't commit crimes or go to jail. Some of the less conspicuous, less glamorous players even go on to the NFL, where they somehow manage to remain just as inconspicuous and unglamorous throughout their career.
Those athletes involved with NCAA violations are generally involved before they get to campus, before they meet the team, before they begin relationships with teammates and most of the coaches. Yes, some things occur after their arrival; the majority does not. If that's the case, then, how is it the team, of which few are likely cognizant of the situation, should go down with the bad apple. Simply put, it's unfair; it lacks wisdom. It may be the status quo, but that don't make it right. JMHO...
But in team sports thats the way it is...
Use an ineligible player and you will lose a victory...
Do it knowingly and you forfeit...
You can't simply take Coffey's rushing yards and touchdowns and remove them from the game and see where the team stands then because it doesn' account for the blocking and other intangibles he did...
Vacating and forfeiture is the only option...
Crappy for those that followed the rules...
Perfectly fair though, IMHO...
If your example, Mr. Coffey, was involved nothing he did in this regard impacted his play on the field; it didn't make him a better athlete. It's for this reason I maintain my opinion: The punishment don’t fit the crime.
Watch that AD squirm when you divvy up their share 12 ways & hand it out to other Member Institutions.
That's about a million apiece...Which essentially means you can double your recruiting budget that year and make Alabama bleed monetarily.
THAT would impact an AD and truly become a negative deterrent against violations & induce improved vigilance & compliance.
Vacation of victories? Sounds as limp-wristed as it reads...
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/sec/0-7-35/Wiping-ou...
My man...
What's been happenin'?
I was perusing some old threads a few days ago and made me wonder where you'd been...
every book was returned.
the players were able to get the books from the bookstore with their scholarship, but they got them for their friends.
once their friends' classes were over, the books were returned.
the story is being twisted by the media outlets.
In actuality, its been staring down the barrel of a gun for 20 years...and its been cheating long before that...
Seriously...Do you think Albert Means...some BS Defensive Lineman from Memphis...You REALLY think he was the only kid that got paid for?
I mean, you want to talk about twisting reality...
Seriously, dude...
You're alot more gullible than I thought...
This is why the institution is being punished...
Along with the fact that they were currently on probation as a repeat offender form 2002 while being on probation as a repeat offender from a violation 1999...
This is exactly why the punishment is what it is.
My response to you at the bottom of this thread was a little irrevelant. I was mistaken thinking you were one saying the punishment should have been worse.
All SA's with eligibilty remaining that were involved in this are required to pay restitution in lieu of suspension or further loss of eligibility...
As well as...
The ones that abused it the tune of over 100 bucks were suspended and had to apply to the NCAA for reinstement of their eligibility...
Best idea I've heard so far. The punishment amounts to a slap on the wrist. How long can you keep someone on probation before it's considered violated?
Geaux Tigers
Geaux SEC
As well as...
Rather than vacating the victories,, the NCAA should just go ahead and declare forfeitures instead...
If athletes were ineligible then there shouldn't be a problem with that...
when will the NCAA start punishing the guilty and not the innocent.
these kids were intentionally stealing from the university.
so because some kids found a loophole in the system to steal money, the football team should vacate wins and be put on probation for 3 years?
how about the kids that stole be put in jail?
or when a rogue booster that hasn't stepped foot on campus in over a year slips a few $100 bills into a recruits hand in a handshake, 5 hours away, an entire football program gets the death penalty.
unless said booster is affiliated with USC.
pretty ridiculous.
BC...Are you even 21 years old? Have you had a birthday party yet that wasn't held while Alabama wasn't on probation?
You guys should steal from the Masters...
"Alabama Football Probation: A Tradition Unlike Any Other"...
my money's on Alabama at home.
Ever?
bahahaha
put alabama on eternal probation for all i care.
it's not like it's Alabama that's cheating.
before it was a rogue booster (booster = random alabama grad), now it's athletes stealing money from the bookstore.
i'm sure we'll get the death penalty for an Alabama fan buying the team a round of drinks after a big win.
how do you expect me to take NCAA rulings as some kind of insult?
wanna go golfing sunday? i hear the weather will be perfect for a day on the links.
1.) You answer my question.
2.) You somehow finangle Mike Price into our Threesome.
[Wait...that last part didn't come out right, LOL!]
The NCAA has disallowed either team from claiming a victory...So...What the heck?
The wins will be present. Personally I don't really care how the book keepers mark the wins in the footnotes.
I think the victory should be assigned to Slippery Rock.
The books will just show they showed up in Jax and lost to nobody...
You mean these two?
Wettest state on record in 2008...
U guys made it easier to post thru facebook....
Welcome back.
Looking forward to catching up with you all...and the people i don't know yet...
If you go here you should be able to change your display name to whatever you want.
did any of you realize that not one student-athlete in this "scandal" pocketed a single dollar?
the big CRIME here was getting textbooks for their friends, even though all of the textbooks were returned.
that's why this "slap on the wrist" is being considered over-the-top. it would be like checking out a book at the library with your library card, letting your friend read it, and then returning it.
SO, because a few players wanted to use their scholarship to get books for their friends, and return them after use, 21 wins must be vacated and the football team must be put on 3 years of probation, and a $40,000 fine must be paid.
Your logic is elementary and so flawed, its ridiculous.
Let me break it down like this:
If I have $100, and I have it earmarked to buy a book for a class that is considered required reading, and then someone tells me, "Hey, I can get it for you for free."
You just gave them something that was essentially worth $100, and they could go spend that money on their cellphone bill, a bar tab, or really terrible haircuts like the one you're trying to cover with a hat in your avatar photo.
Why else would a single athlete credit out nearly $4000 in books in one semester...
...or really terrible haircuts like the one you're trying to cover with a hat in your avatar photo...
I believe those are referred to as:
"Bammer Bangs"
Or my personal favorite...
"The Reverse Mullet"...
Which begs to question...
Does this mean that BC is "Party in the front & business in the back"?
Which is why the institution and programs are being punished...
It was their short sight that allowed students other than the scholarship athletes to receive books for free essentially...
http://www.tuscaloosanews.com/article/20090611/...
How the heck does the NCAA morally justify the "gifts" doled out to players at big time bowls???
The institution may also provide a participation award with a value of up to $350...
However, were a player to sell any part of that bowl gift package for cash while still in school it would constitute a violation of NCAA rules...
That's how schools can award Conference championship and national championship rings and why a player cnnot sell such an item until after leaving the school...
Individual awards from the Heisman down to the Key to the City that a player might receive also all have an allowable maximum limit in regards to the value/worth of the award...
All of the above are way different than ringing up nearly $4000 in textbooks in a semester to rent them out to classmates below their value...
Some institutions are too "big" to fail:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/a...
I'm not justifying their actions, but, all they were doing were helping friends get books...
People are acting like this was worse than the ACADEMIC FRAUD at F$U, are you kidding me???
We'll see what the NCAA does with Soouthern Cal, which will be nothing b/c they control the west coast market, so the Trojans can pay off Reggie Bush, OJ Mayo, Leinart, et al... and don't have to worry about repercussions...
Did Ohio State get in one OUNCE of trouble for Maurice Clarrett??? Did they get in trouble for paying off those european players???
Alabama found out about it, suspended the players involved, and changed the policy as to how players get their books...
But some people are such "HATERS", that they're upset that they didn't get the Death Penalty, anyone who thinks that is what they dererve is a MORON.
At least Bama isn't low rent like F$U, who only cares about Bobby's wins and not the integrity of their program. If anyone was on the cusp of the death penalty, the Criminoles should be closest... The NCAA harps on academics, yet barely penalizes a school for ACADEMIC FRAUD... a f*cking joke...
War Eagle, if I had known you were gonna attempt comedy with that electric chair pic, I could have given you a picture of "Yellow Mama" from Atmore...
Okay, will the NCAA now take a look at USC? What is this, like day 1245 in their investigation?
Found it!!!
http://www.itvs.org/shows/ataglance.php?showID=...
I remember back in the early '80s, the Bham News used to publish a photo of "Yellow Mama" getting a fresh coat of paint... like it was some sort of deterant to put the electric chair in the paper, lol...
Scenario: You have connections with the local club because a family member owns it. There's a really good band playing and there's a $20 cover charge. A few of your friends want to go, so you tell them, "Hey, I can put you on the list and you won't have to pay. I can also get you some free drinks so just come find me when y'all get there." You don't tell your family-member owner about this. You get your friends in and endless drinks for free, and your friends love you. So the next time a good band comes, you do it again. And again. Maybe again, but maybe you are smart enough to stop. You cheated the club hundred of dollars. If you realized it, then hopefully you were honorable and smart enough to stop. If you kept doing it, aware you were costing the club money, then you should be punished.
Same situation here, guys. IT HAPPENS. College kids don't always make the smartest decisions. We've all lived or are living our college days, so we know what it's like. People make dumb decision, especially if friends have some influence on them. Now here is my question I promised. DO YOU HONESTLY BELIEVE THAT THIS IS NOT HAPPENING IN OTHER PROGRAMS AROUND THE COUNTRY???? If you don't, then you are just plain ignorant. Sure, it may not be as severe, money wise, as it was with the 22 athletes at Alabama. They were just stupid. But I guarantee you there are "unintentional violators" in just about every program out there. Along with a few intentional ones. I'd bet a whole lot on it.
So please don't sit there and say the punishment should have been much worse for the program as a whole for what 7 football players did. The program as a whole committed no wrongdoings in this case. Postseason ban? Scholarship losses? DEATH PENALTY?? HA! That is so laughable, I'm out of laughs.
Sure, Alabama has to be about as angelic as angels until the probation runs out....according to TE, our grandchildren's grandchildren will still not have celebrated a birthday when Alabama isn't on probation....but whatever.
Let's just play ball, because my team has scholarships to give out and postseason games to play...does yours?
Disclaimer: This post is in no way justifying the actions of these athletes. What they did was wrong and punishable. This post is simply serving as a view from inside glasses that may or may not have a crimson tint.
It is in all caps and follows the statement, "Now here is my question I promised."
Just because it goes on elsewhere...doesn't make it right...and I know you're not saying it's right...
It wasn't supposed to be an example exactly like this case. The point was to show how SIMILARITIES of the situation (finding loop holes to avoid paying - no matter what is at risk) happen all the time, and how easy it is to get caught up in it.
People were saying how the punishment should have been worse, and I was trying to not-so-simply say that the punishment is appropriate. I believe the violations, for themselves, deserves less than 3 years probation...but the monitoring wasn't executed properly, so it deserves what it got - nothing more. Give credit to Alabama for speaking up and acting as soon as it was discovered in 2007. It could have been much worse.
Again, I am in no way justifying the actions of these athletes.
Sure it's not the best analogy, but if you don't get all technical, it actually is. Yeah, in my scenario you weren't actually "stealing" something. The main point is you are cheating the system of money - aware or unaware.
That's what this case was about, right?
Look, the point of my post was to say that this is not as bad a violation as all of you think. Therefore, the punishment should not have been more than a slap on the wrist - as it was. If you actually think the NCAA should have taken scholarships and put a postseason ban on the team for what a few ignorant athletes did, then you are just as ignorant as them. And don't be surprised if something like this pops up in another program...because like I said, it happens elsewhere. If someone else gets caught for this, thank Alabama.
Tim Floys paid OJ Mayo OUT OF HIS OWN POCKET... Reggie Bush & his family were GIVEN A F*CKING HOUSE!!!
Just wait and see, the NCAA will say Tim Floyd "acted alone", and since he resigned(and LA is the 2nd largest media market, so we can't piss them off), then all's well...
FYI: Paul Dee was AD of Miami, and they were put on probation TWICE during his tenure, so why the f*ck is he on the infractions committee??? B/c he knows what to look for???
The NCAA is the biggest group of hypocrites next to Washington DC...
Bitter??? Yep, darn near ate her...
You might be as naive as old Bama Locks up there...
But "Naive"???
Do you actually believe that all those Gators who have been arrested and had charges "dropped" were actually innocent???
But, of course, the NCAA would have no jurisdiction in such matters anyway...
As well as, criminal proceedings aren't always fair or right...
Kinda like life...
And in addition...
Charges of a criminal nature aren't always dropped due to innocence but often because of lack of evidence or witnesses and/or their credibility...
Nor do I fully believe that within whatever time frame it's been since you played "boringball" there that Bama would have at one time required a student identification or account card of some sort to pick up books and then all of the sudden stopped requiring it...
It doesn't appear you have even bothered to read the actual report...
Perhaps you should take a look at it and then come back and state your case when you've familiarized yourself with the actual situation...
It's not about cheating the university out of money at all...
The case is about impermissible benfits and failure to monitor the program...
Free drinks and booty shakin' have nothing to do with it...
In addition...
I for one think the punishment is right on considering the double repeat offender label...
Had there not been that factor, the NCAA would have laid out a mere probationary period...
As noted in its report...
Have you even read that yet?
And, no, BB...
It doesn't happen everywhere else...
Can't speak for other programs, but I can for UF...
And the kids there pick up their books from their academic advisors...
Not free roam at the bookstore...
Which effectively prevents things like this from happening...
Remember one of Colorado's charges including providing alcohol to recruits...
However, the NCAA isn't the legal system or the cops...
Simply the agency monitoring athletics...
One has nothing to do with the other really...
But should they get involved in that aspect of athletes, coaches and staff?
Should they provide a policy that prevents athletes and coaches from participating while a case is open to investigation or a hearing and trial pending?
But I digress...
So you actually read the entire Alabama probation report??? If so, do you have a life???
Were you even born when Charlie Pell & Galen Hall almost got your Gators the death penalty???
Actually they wouldn't...
The Dawgs would be there with a whopping 30 over the last four years...
Yeah, I read the entire report...
It's only 15 pages and about a thirty minute read...
Of course, for a Bama man I understand that it might take a day or two to get through it given it's not illustrated and contains some big words like "and" & "the"...
And yes, I remember quite vividly the entire Pell and Hall sagas...
The difference being I'm not still whining about how unfair it is and how the NCAA is picking on the Gates...
Because it wasn't unfair and they weren't picking on them...
Bama & FSU need to stop crying and simply stand up and take their punishment with dignity...
Not like a sniveling cowards...
In all seriousness, Hipster, the oldest of these Bammer Fans were-perhaps-in Kindergarten the last time Alabama wasn't on probation for violations...It's a way of life for them...
They don't understand because they have some undeserved sense of Entitlement to success. Any attempts on their part to attain advantages over other schools, violate NCAA rules & regulations, etc., is viewed merely as Standard Operating Procedure.
Conversely, any attempt by anyone-Phil Fulmer, the NCAA, Federal, State & Local authorities-to reign in their illicit and/or in some cases illegal behavior is simply thought of as bitter attempts by lesser beings to tug at Superman's Cape...
Rules do not apply to Alabama, and anyone who believes differently is obviously unhinged...
"Sniveling cowards"???
What are you talking about???
Are you referring to Jeremy Foley whining about the Orlando paper's REPORTING of the Gators who were arrested???
If Foley wants to control the media, tell him to take his program to North Korea or Venezuela where there IS no free media... Then he can have birthday cake & ice cream headlines every day...
Let's move on, shall we???
Ever notice that you don't see alot of coverage on that?
I'm in the Orlando area and read that paper daily...
Never seen what you're talking about in regards to Foley...
Link it up, please...
You're right, not the Orlando paper...
Of Georgia's 30, only 4 were felonies.
Of Florida's 21, 9 were felonies.
Even the FSU "Criminoles" have less felony arrests than your almighty Gators.
Just sayin'.
Oh, and I'm not one to whine and say the NCAA is picking on Alabama. If you do something wrong, you should be punished.
Wait...Should this be in the Women's Poster's Thread?
Florida hasn't seen probation in nearly 20...
To quote you, BB dear...
Just sayin'...
You said Georgia had the most criminals, and I was just stating that Florida, while having less overall criminals, had more felons.
That's all.
Being young and dumb and breaking the rules does not absolve you from breaking the rules. There's no real way around that. However, I not only empathize, but sympathize-as you are correct in assuming that all of us have been there before.
Again, to reiterate: Breaking the rules is breaking the rules.
As a secondary point to respond to this, I have asked around, and LSU's program is pretty standard. The AA's & tutors handle books, and there is no opportunity for the SA's to game the system.
As Gatorhippy has stated previously, it does not happen at Florida, either.
So, the last two National Champions-and as an aside, the last two Conference Champions in the SEC-do not operate like this.
If you'd like to mention your program in the same breath as those two for on the field accomplishments, don't act as if its okay to not be on their same level in terms of what you ask for in the way of off the field decision making on the part of your student athletes, nevermind your Compliance & Monitoring.
By the way, I definitely mention Alabama in the same breath as LSU & Florida. I hold your team to the same standard I hold mine to. I'd rightfully excoriate any dumb decisions or behavior on any of my team's hijinks, as well.
So, to use the argument of "Everyone's jumping off the bridge; why can't I?" is really not going to get a whole lot of traction with any rational observer.
Secondly, I have never said that you all should receive the Death Penalty over this problem. The Gadsden City deal is what your program should receive the Death Penalty for. But, to use your term, "whatever."
I think that's a simple overstatement on your part. No offense taken-on any of this, really, as I dish out a lot, and I can definitely take my fair share (Hey, we went 8-5 and lost at home to you guys, after all).
To go one further, I find it honestly really humorous that you would take such a damning fact-that your fellow Bama fans like BC have not actually seen a sunrise in their entire time on this Earth without your football program being on probation for violations that involve your football program-and act as if I'm overstating or reaching when pointing it out.
It's a fact. Your program will have been on probation for TWENTY ONE YEARS when its all said and done. Not 21 years total in its existence. Not 21 since they started handing out probation. Not 21 since the NCAA came into existence.
They have been on probation for football related issues FOR TWENTY ONE STRAIGHT YEARS. There's no need for me to exaggerate a sad fact like that.
For you to overstate that fact as if its "no big deal" is laughable, boo.
Your program's past is dirty as hell. The current isn't exactly squeaky clean. The future-I believe-will bear more fruit from that same branch. You need to simply own up to it. If for nothing else, then to simply move past it & the most recent tales of Crimson colored woe your program's inflicted upon itself.
It's almost as if you'd want us to believe that Albert Means was the only player in the History of Alabama Football who was paid to attend. I mean, a backup DL that wasn't even close to being the most coveted player in that signing class got paid SIX FIGURES to sign?
Mid-Round MLB draftee's don't get paid that much money to sign professional baseball contracts.
I'm digressing, & while you may laugh at this, I definitely don't want to come off as mean-spirited, but perhaps being a history major, or just a few years old than you, coupled with me being a fan of another program that's a hated rival of yours (and believe me, I hated Bama long before Nick took the job; its just that you were so damn irrelevant before he got there for years before), I look at things in a more big picture perspective. I draw conclusions off of the entire picture. I don't do daisy chain logic.
But, your program's history of conjured up national titles, along with its more legitimate, if somewhat faded past of actual dominance, which was very real, is perhaps only equaled by egregious unethical behavior on the part of your program, its coaches, etc.
The tradition of cheating at Alabama is just as much of a lamentable fact as is your rich tradition of Championships & Victories. It soils & stains their legacy at every turn, in fact.
Ok, first of all, I was not saying that it happens everywhere. I said if you think it doesn't happen at institutions other than Alabama, you are stupid. Secondly, I certainly wasn't saying that because of it happening elsewhere, that it was okay. I did not, in any way, use the "Everyone's jumping off the bridge, so why can't I" argument. I never justified the wrongdoings of any athlete at the University of Alabama, and I clearly stated - several times - that the athletes were wrong and should have been punished accordingly.
I definitely mention Alabama in the same breath as the other top programs in the SEC. No textbook scandal or probation would change that. I was not talking about Florida or LSU when I said things like this happen elsewhere. So do not put words into my mouth, please.
Ok, TE. I have not lived a single day when Alabama has not been on probation. Is that what you want me to say? Is that really something I should be so ashamed of that I don't want to be an Alabama fan? Sure, it sucks. But do I get to attend every Alabama football game each fall? Do I get to wear my school colors proudly and talk football with everyone - you guys included - like it is my life?
I think so. Just like all of you who are fans of schools who haven't been on much probation, if any at all. So I don't see why you are bringing it up and something that should cripple me or turn me away from my school. It definitely sucks, and it's something that should be avoided. However, I can do nothing about it. As long as my football team can play on the field and win, I will continue breathing in the excitement that comes with being an Alabama fan. NOTHING will change that.
You need to simply own up to it. When have I denied it??
If nothing else, then to simply move past it.. Why do you think my attitude appears as if it is "no big deal"?? Because there is nothing anyone can do about it now. What happened, happened. I'm moving on.
And yes, you are right. I did laugh a few times while I read your post. But do not worry, you don't come off as mean-spirited...just someone who is full of hatred. But hatred exists all around college football, and as Bruce Pearl says (yes, I went that low) if you are popular, then you are not winning.
You are certainly wrong about your last point, TE. The years of probation do not hold a dark cloud over the years of dominance. The tradition at the University of Alabama isn't known as "cheating" and probation. Know why?
Because the tradition that is at the University of Alabama started WAAAAY before these 21 straight years of probation. The dominance came before then. YOUR university started being relevant in the college football world in the last 21 years, so you think those years matter more than the previous. I'm not one to "live in the past" so I will not go further. Sure Alabama might have been on probation for 21 straight years. But if you think the University of Alabama and its football program is going anywhere, you are mistaken. History repeats itself, right? If so, the only destination for Alabama is up.
I'm finished with the textbook issue. It's over and done with. Nothing can or will justify what happened, and nothing can be done about it now. So, unlike us Alabama fans are known to do, I'm focusing on the future. The past is the past, so bring on the 2009 season. Soon, please!
TE makes a good point although I believe he put a bit too much of SEC emotion in his response to your original post.
After my read of your post, I perceived you defending others' likely argument that Bama should have received harsher punishments. Your reasoning rests almost solely on highlighting the same infractions at many other schools that have not been discovered. First, no one is saying that this type of conduct is not happening at other schools, but many can argue that it's not happening at their school. Second, arguing "People make dumb decision, especially if friends have some influence on them" really serves no purpose as a defense or justification. We all know people make dumb decisions and that's why regulations and laws are setup. If every school was doing this or just Bama, every student should be punished.
I applaud Bama's coming forward and reporting its violations. Let's be honest, though. Given Bama's past, that is the only reason the punishments were not harsher.
Do you believe that certain programs that have a history of infractions are probably more under the microscope-so to speak than others.
Down here in the late seventies, it was like who wasn't dirty, and I'm not talking about text-books or tennis shoes-The competition between members of the old SWC schools to win at all cost, resulted in many publicly known infractions- It was kind of like general knowledge that certain Alums and contributers enticed recruits with generous gifts and that some programs were cleaner than others, but everybody was considered dirty to a certain extent. Now here we are thirty years later and you can't break wind without somekind of scandal.
In this day and age of self-reporting I'm sure nothing is swept under the rug-right. The textbook thing aint nothing compared to other violations, not that it was excetable, but geeze- Bush free rent comes to mind