Fanblogs.com: Conference Debates: 2009 NFL Pro Bowl Edition
Hotty_Toddy
· 11 months ago
Woo!
Hotty_Toddy
· 11 months ago
Oh yeah... first!
Ben Prather
· 11 months ago
NFL Probowl, like number of players from a college playing in the NFL, is a lagging indicator of NCAA performance, indicating the average strength of the conferences from 14 - 3 years ago.
This reflects the talent that was in those conferences at that time, differences from this would indicate how well or poorly that talent was used.
Porcine
· 11 months ago
How did the conference hopping affect the numbers, if at all? I'm assuming many of the ACC players were Hurricanes when they were Big East.
Zac
· 11 months ago
I'm of the opinion a conference's strength is not measured by how many players it sends to the NFL draft, how many ex-conference players are still active in the NFL, how many teams there are within it, how many teams are ranked within it, whether or not the #1 team is in it or the NC comes from it, how many of its teams go to bowls (though that's more conducive), or whether or not it has its own championship game. A conference's strength is measured by its success against quality opponents outside the conference. That a clear-cut conference stand-out does not emerge further strengthens this premise, as this is an indication the conference, from top to bottom, is loaded with teams of nearly equal strength.
I've asked the question before. Which schedule would a team prefer to face season after season? The likes of OK, OK St, TX, TX Tech, CO, KS, KS St, TX A&M, Citadel, McNeese St, M. TN St, Richmond, or BC, Cal, FSU, IA, NC, NE, Ole Miss, OR St, Pitt, VA Tech, WI, WVU? In the 1st scenario a team would face four Top-10 teams. In the 2nd, a team would maybe face 4 Lower-20 teams. So, which is the tougher schedule?
At the end of a given season, the number of teams attending bowls from a conference, not to mention the success of those teams from a given conference in their bowls, helps to solidify conference strength. Last year, I think we had to go with the SEC. This year will likely be different.
For now, the NFL gives the ACC the nod, based upon active players. One might consider this arguable, given this year, of the 12 teams, 9 have at least 7 wins; 10 are bowl eligible, and 11 have a conference record of between 3-5 & 5-3; none have a conference record better than 5-3. The ACC does have a 37-11 non-conference record. However, when you look at the non-conference schedule, AL, FL, GA, & USC certainly stand out, yet all but 1 involved losses. After them, the quality of opponents begins to drop off. Once you get past the likes of Cal, ECU, NE, Ole Miss, SC, & maybe S FL & UConn, quality drops off considerably.
In my opinion at least 23 of the non-conference teams the ACC has played are not quality opponents, and another 7 are arguably questionable. The point is whether or not the ACC is the strongest conference remains to be seen. Given the number of teams they're sending to bowls, just how strong they are will be exposed soon enough.
Wardboy3
· 11 months ago
One could argue are there just one or two TOP teams in a conf or is the conf, as a whole, is balanced from top to bottom? I think that is the ACC this year, top to bottom balanced and not one or two top teams, which I think has been the SEC this year and last.
Yes the ACC, as youpoint out, against some of the other programs were losses, FL, USC, AL, but they as a conf whole played more games against other BCS schools. When you play more BCS schools (true schedules are made years in advance so something that looks good now looks like crap later) you set yourself up for the possibility of more losses. Which I feel is something the SEC usually avoids. Just look at how many SUN BELT teams they played. So saying if SEC played more BCS schools, maybe more wins, maybe more losses. If more losses, less chance at bowl games, less you look strong. Get my point?
Zac
· 11 months ago
Oh, I get your point, alright. Without question, the ACC is "balanced" from top to bottom. Are they the strongest, especially based upon your argument? Let's take a look. Here are some of the non-conference teams played by this year's ACC: C FL, Charleston St, Citadel, DE, E MI, Furman, Gardener-Webb, Jacksonville St, JMU, Kent St, McNeese St, Mid TN St, Navy, RI, Richmond, SC St, TN Chatanooga, W Carolina, W KY, Wm & Mary. Some of these were played by more than one ACC team. Now, you wanna see some of their BCS schools? Baylor, CO, MS St, ND, Rutgers, TX A&M, Vandy. One of these was played by more than one ACC team. These two groups account for more than half of the ACC's non-conference schedule. Not exactly an earth shattering bunch, is it.
By the way, I didn't include ECU (9-4, CUSA Champ). I consider then a quality team this year; not to mention, they beat the ACC Champ.
Now, is it OK for the SEC to do this, and not the ACC. No, that's a double standard. However, if your'e gonna schedule these games, ya gots to win these games, and a few teams in the ACC lost some of these games. Get my point?
Wardboy3
· 11 months ago
As I said, when you sch a team you do not know what you are getting down the road when you play them ( ND for instance). But have you really looked at the SEC? Wyoming...well we all know what happened there...what about La Tech...whoops, my bad. Lets talk about who the SEC did beat. Tulane (3x), WKY (2x), Ark St, W Ill, La-Monroe {3x} (you better watch them...they too can beat mighty SEC teams, just ask Bama), Sout Miss, UT-Martin, Citadel, GA Southern, Cent Mich, Norfolk St, MTSU (2x), App St, N TX, Troy, Memphis, Samford, SE-La, Wofford, UAB (2x), N Ill, Rice.
Yes all will sch some patsies, but you have to look at the overall which you are not doing. The SEC had 48 OOC games this year. Only 15 (31%) were against BCS schools with the SEC winning only 6 (40%). Not to mention again losing 2 against non-BCS schools.
What I am getting at is for the SEC to brag so much about their strength they sure do like to play a majority of the OCC games against non-BCS schools. I will not say anything about anyone who attempts to play a BCS school. I do not care if it is a traditional powerhouse or a traditional loser...at least play BCS schools. Surely the SEC, with all their power, and money can do better than 31%?
Zac
· 11 months ago
You make some good points. I agree; it would be impossible to know how good an opponent will be, even as early as 2 years from now. For example, when USC scheduled their visit with VA, they thought they'd bought a 9-3 team, not a 5-7 team. When WY agreed to visit TN, they didn't expect the Vol's to be in the middle of a coaching crisis. IN didn't expect to be part of Ball St's undefeated regular season, and Ball St didn't expect to lose to Buffalo, especially as badly as they did.
I also agree; BCS schools should schedule at least as many BCS schools as they schedule Non-BCS schools, not to mention, they should avoid 1-AA/Div-2 as much as possible. It looks much better to beat the likes of Baylor, Duke, or Stanford, than to lose to Appy St, Montana St, or Wofford.
As for your assertion that I'm not looking at the over-all picture, not true. The difference in our debate seems to stem upon the number of BCS opponents scheduled by a conference as opposed to the number of quality opponents scheduled by a conference. Sure, a conference can schedule more BCS opponents than another conference, but that doesn't mean they have scheduled more quality opponents. Not to mention, if that conference isn't beating those quality opponents, then, what difference does it make that they've scheduled them?
Where it becomes difficult in making my argument is the separation of quality opponents from non-quality opponents. For example, ND. They're BCS, bowl eligible, but are they a quality opponent? I have to say no. The aggregate record of the 6 teams they've beaten is 22-53, and only 1 (Navy) had a winning record (8-4). What about NC St or Vanderbilt? One began lousy, then improved; the other started out great, then faded. Like ND, at 6-6, can either be cosiderd a quality opponent? Then again, are we gonna say non-BCS teams, like 9-4 ECU, 9-3 Rice, or 10-3 Tulsa are not quality opponents?
Now, I realize none of this answers the question is the ACC the strongest conference this year? (I personally think the Big-12 is the strongest.) Is the ACC stronger than the SEC this year? (It's close, but I think the jury is still out.) Is the ACC the most balanced conference from top to bottom this year? (Absolutely!) That's why I'm saying this year, let the bowls decide. It just might be our best barameter.
Clemson_Joe
· 11 months ago
Pro bowlers don't really matter, but the ACC was/is the deepest this year. When discussing conference strength, it is relative, and the depth of a conference is the best indicator of its overall strength. Here's what Sagarin's #s show yet again...
Before, "rivalry week" I stated this, and it was argued by a few SEC fans. Then the ACC went 3-1 over the SEC. Clemson whipped South Carolina, Georgia Tech took down Georgia in Athens, and Wake beat Vandy, with the only loss coming with FSU losing to an elite tier Florida team. The ACC has 10 teams in bowl games, and now let's see how that pans out. Next year looks to be even stronger than this year for the ACC. The Big XII and the SEC are certainly very strong at the very top, but lack depth, as you don't have to go very far down the list to find weak squads.
Zac
· 11 months ago
I'm really surprised the Big East wound up 4th. I figured they'd be back at 6th, if not 7th behind the MWC.
Ben Prather
· 11 months ago
I am surprised the PAC 10 is ahead of the MWC this year.
Kevin @ Fanblogs
· 11 months ago
You might want to check my math, but I BELIEVE the ACC went 6-4 against the SEC this season.
Zac
· 11 months ago
MS St & Vanderbilt (2X) accounted for 3 of those wins; GA, Ole Miss, & SC accounted for the other 3.
Bama_Babe
· 11 months ago
deleted.
Clemson_Joe
· 11 months ago
...and Florida and Alabama accounted for 3 of the SEC's 4 wins over the ACC. South Carolina over NC State at the beginning of the year when NCSU was playing terrible football accounts for the other.
spreadeagle
· 11 months ago
You might want to check your math I came up with this equation to find the best conference. Cos(ax) + Cos(bx) + Cos(cx) = 0
Cos(bx) + Cos(cx) = -Cos(ax)
ArcCos[Cos(bx) + Cos(cx)] = ArcCos[-Cos(ax)]
Looking at the right side of the equation after taking the inverse Cos, it will be 180 - ax. It will be 180 - ax because the Cosine there is negative. Now, we want to write the sum of the Cosines on the left side as a single Cosine so we can take the inverse of it and get rid of Cosine all together. We can rewrite:
Cos(bx) + Cos(cx) as Cos(ax)
We can do this because the right side of the equation, before taking the inverse Cosine, is -Cos(ax). The left side must be the additive inverse of this, and so must be Cos(ax). However, the left side is Cos(bx) + Cos(cx), which means that Cos(bx) + Cos(cx) must be the additive inverse of -Cos(ax), which is Cos(ax).
So, pick any value of x, substitute it into the first equation, you will get a value for a. Substitute a value for x into the second equation, then pick values of b and c to satisfy that equation and you will your values for a, b, c, and x that will satisfy your original equation (as long as x does not equal 0).
According to my math the SEC is the best conference.
Regan
· 11 months ago
That math looks like Fuzzy Math, and Al Gore went to Vanderbilt.
6-4. :)
Bama_Babe
· 11 months ago
"X" <---- I FOUND IT!!!!
Hotty_Toddy
· 11 months ago
Now, if ONLY they'd TAKE that answer on my college algebra papers.........
TampaGator
· 11 months ago
LOL! Well, I guess that settles it!
GO GATORS!!
Zac
· 11 months ago
Balderdash...
1Tomcat
· 11 months ago
Clemson Joe good post I believe that the Bowl games are a purty good indicater of strength of conference and that huge upset of Wake over Baylor and the FSU over Colo game both prove that this year the ACC had a good showing against B-12 teams.The Miami over Texas A&M was another one however when looking at the B-12 these teams this year, with the exception of Baylor were not as good as in previous years. Bayor > Texas A&M> Colo Texas A&M #6 in B-12 south beat Colo and ISU #4 & #6 in B-12 north BU whuped A&M 41-7 end of the 3rd quarter we were at the game BU 4-8 #5 B-12 south aint too bad when you got UT,OU,OK st and TTech in your division Hookem Horns
Clemson_Joe
· 11 months ago
I think the Big XII is the strongest at the top this year, and the ACC is the strongest top to bottom. The ACC only has 1 match up with the Big XII in the bowls, and that's my Tigers against the Huskers from Lincoln. We have 2 with the SEC (GT/LSU, BC/Vandy), so that totals only 3 match ups against the other 2 top conferences from this season. I agree that the bowls are a good indicator, and we'll have to see how they all pan out. Regardless, it just proves the fact that conference strength and supremacy is cyclical, and you never know what you're going to get.
"BC"
· 11 months ago
i disagree. i think the SEC is the strongest at the top, and the ACC is the strongest, top to bottom.
if Florida beats Oklahoma, and Ole Miss beats Texas Tech, would that prove my theory? Or if LSU beats GT, Vandy beats BC, Ole Miss beats TT, and Florida beats OU, would that make the SEC the best top-to-bottom, and best at the top?
Clemson_Joe
· 11 months ago
The SEC has 3 upper echelon teams in Georgia, Alabama, and Florida. The Big XII has 5 in Missouri, Oklahoma State, Texas Tech, Texas, and Oklahoma. If somehow Ole Miss can take down Texas Tech, then we can add them to that list. Either way, 5 > 4 or 3. So, I'm going to have to ask you to back up that statement with something more concrete than homerisms.
Your last question is downright ridiculous. How could 2 games possibly prove that a conference is the best top to bottom unless the bottom teams are involved? A conference is only as strong, as a conference, as it is deep. So, with that said, let's talk about Miss. State, Auburn, Vanderbilt, Tennessee, Kentucky, and Arkansas. Those are the bottom 6 of the SEC this season. Now, how do you think those teams would fare against the bottom of the Big XII or ACC? Vandy and Kentucky showed signs of life this season, but Vandy lost to both Wake Forest and Duke. Every year you SEC fans preach about having the best conference, and in recent years, you have. This year, there is virtually nothing to back up your claim, but you still can't seem to get over it. It honestly makes you look pathetic. Look man, your team is great this year, and that's awesome for you, but your conference as a whole is having a down year.
Bama_Babe
· 11 months ago
I can agree with you....to a certain extent.
No doubt the Big XII has a few more top teams than the SEC. However, it's not how many strong teams you have in the top ten that matter. It's the strength of those teams. If Florida proves to be stronger than Oklahoma, and Ole Miss (which is not even ranked in the top 10) proves to be stronger than Tech, the SEC will be the best at the top, right?
If the strongest team from the SEC beats the strongest team from the Big XII, would that mean the SEC is the strongest? It would be arguable. However, if a lower SEC team beats one of those strong Big XII teams, it would be more convincing.
No doubt that some of the normally stronger SEC teams are having a down year, but that doesn't take away from the ones at the top this year. If the SEC can beat the Big XII and other conferences in its "down year", (revenging the regular season vs ACC) then it could still be considered the strongest.
I guess we'll have to wait until Bowl season to determine everything....good thing it starts this weekend!!
Oh, btw, the ACC started out looking like a poor conference this year, but has come back and proven its strength from top to bottom - so I wasn't arguing that. ;)
"BC"
· 11 months ago
woah bama babe. watch out. you got dangerously close to going against the grain. ;)
Tommy_Trojan
· 11 months ago
Bama_Babe:
It seems like your argument sounds like this: if USC blows out everybody in the country - then the PAC 10 must be the best conference because they have the strongest team. No matter how good USC is - it doesn't make the PAC 10 teams any better than they really are. Same goes for Florida or Oklahoma or Penn State or anybody. USC won a couple of National Championships in a row and that didn't make the PAC 10 the best conference. Neither does the fact that Florida and LSU winning the last two, cement into concrete, that the SEC is by far the best conference. You just got lucky enough to have gotten to play Ohio State both times.
The best teams in your conference are reaching a very high standard though. I will give you that. But, Clemson Joe's points are very valid. The bottom of the conference has always been weak. If the bottom of a conference is weak - then the top of that conference will appear to be strong. No? Sprinkle in many mid-major and Division II teams to beat up on in the pre-season - and the teams will all look better than they really are. The SEC is WAY DOWN this year. Of that there is no doubt. After the bowl games there will be proof. I think that both Florida and Alabama win their respective bowl games and are as good as any teams in the country. But, all of the rest of the SEC teams are in danger of losing bowl games this year. We've already seen the ACC take games away that used to belong to the SEC. None of this means that the SEC will not bounce back. They most certainly will. But, with all of the younger QB's that are going to be inheriting jobs, this may not happen for another couple of years.
My advise is to not get too caught up into thinking that the SEC is gonna be dominating too many bowl games this year. Just be happy if Florida and Alabama win.
Bama_Babe
· 11 months ago
Tommy,
I think the way I worded my post was misleading. I by no means think that the SEC would be the strongest just because the top team is the strongest. I was arguing with what Clemson Joe said about the Big XII being stronger at the top just because they had more strong teams.
Yes, the Big XII had a stronger year than the SEC - based on all 12 teams in each conference. However, my point was that just because the Big XII has more teams that are stronger doesn't mean that those teams are the strongEST. If Florida, the top team in the SEC, beats Oklahoma, arguably the strongest team in the Big XII, then that would mean the TOP of the SEC is stronger than the TOP of the Big XII. Not the entire conference, I understand that.
Sorry for the confusion. Don't let me down in the Rose Bowl-I've got your Trojans on top of my Bowl Picks, and I'll need those points....I'm doing awful right now!
;)
Tommy_Trojan
· 11 months ago
Bama_Babe:
I'm still not sold that the BIG 12 is the strongest conference. The only thing that I can see is that Oklahoma beat TCU pretty handily. What really good BCS program wouldn't? Other than that game - who did they schedule? The SEC played much tougher non-conf games with their ACC foes this year. I'll take good defense over good offense any day of the week. Therefore, I would suspect, that many a good SEC team would beat a good BIG 12 team.
My money is on Florida to beat the spread. Florida plays defense, Bradford is gonna have pressure all dayum day long, and the Oklahoma receivers will have Florida DB's stuck inside of their jerseys. This isn't gonna be like playing pitch and catch in those pathetic BIG 12 games. Oklahoma isn't gonna understand what happened - just like Ohio State hasn't understood in the previous two years. The one thing that the SEC really has going for it is the tough defense. That is what helps the SEC perform very well in the Bowl games. Other conferences do not provide the intense defense, week in and week out, that the SEC teams provide. It can be quite a shock.
That is why my Trojans play so well in BCS bowl games. The defense can be overwhelming at times. Many schools are just not quite prepared for that kinda intensity. I can see Penn State coming apart in this one. They haven't seen anything like this. It will be an enormous shock. Likewise for Utah. What they are gonna witness in the Sugar Bowl is going to be something that they have not seen. Alabama's defense is gonna be on them like stink on sheeit. So, I can get your point. All I'm saying really, is that some of the SEC teams offenses were so poor this year, that they were completely destroyed by any kind of good defensive team. Teams like Tennessee, Auburn, LSU, Kentucky and Georgia have suffered mightily on offense this year. This can be attributed to injuries (as in Kentucky and Georgia's case), loss of good coaching (LSU on defense), and changeover of good offensive personnel from the previous year. Nevertheless, the SEC still plays very good defense, and will probably do okay in the Bowl games. Florida and Alabama should do really well - and Georgia could look impressive also. This still does not "etch into stone" that the SEC was any kinda dominate conference this year. I really don't feel like the SEC drew the toughest teams that they could play in the Bowl games either. Florida didn't have to play USC. Alabama didn't have to play Texas or Penn State. So, without playing against the best teams in those games - the SEC cannot make the argument that they are the strongest conference. Likewise, I'm not gonna toot my own horn when we beatdown Penn State. It would have been much better to be playing either Florida or Alabama. I don't picture the BIG 12 as being any better than the BIG 10 - but that is just my opinion. Our record has been very good against both of those conferences forever - and I don't see much difference in them.
"BC"
· 11 months ago
Clemson Joe, i can tell that reading comprehension isn't your strong-suit, so i'll lay it out a little easier for you to understand:
your basis for your entire argument, is that the Big 12 has 5 teams, and the SEC has 3..... well, how can you for sure, say this isn't true: Florida > Oklahoma Ole Miss > Texas Tech Alabama > Texas Georgia > Oklahoma State Arkansas > Kansas Vanderbilt > Kansas State LSU > Missouri Kentucky > Colorado South Carolina > Nebraska Mississippi State > Texas A&M Auburn > Iowa State Tennessee > Baylor
you absolutely cannot. and i think most college football analysts would agree that if all of those games were to be played, the SEC would win the majority of them. in fact, i think most college football analysts would agree that the SEC, THIS YEAR, would beat every other conference game-to-game like that. now, wouldn't that prove a conference is better top-to-bottom than all of the others?
okay, now take the top of the SEC: Alabama, Georgia, Ole Miss, Florida now, take the top of the Big 12: Texas, Oklahoma State, Texas Tech, Oklahoma
if the SEC wins 3 of those games, wouldn't that prove that it's the strongest at the top as well?
Joe, you're obviously biased AGAINST the SEC, so don't call me a homer, when you're the one with an obvious agenda.
you act like the SEC is a joke! guess what man! we've got 2 teams in BCS bowls for the 3rd straight year in a row! guess what man! we're about to make our BCS record 6-0 in the last 3 years. with 3 national championships! yah! yah! yah! Trick! ACC - no, Big 12 - no, Pac 10 - no, Big East - no, Big Ten - no.
Clemson_Joe
· 11 months ago
Really? Do you really want to get into a battle of wits with me? Are you really incapable of backing a statement in a discussion without resorting to childish cut downs? I'll let that slide for now. Pop an adderall and pay attention here.
I have this little thing called numbers on my side. The numbers tell a story, and that is that the SEC is not the best conference this year. See Sagarin's rankings, or really any rankings for that matter, for proof.
Please tell me exactly where I acted like the SEC was a joke. I have simply shown that it's not the best conference. I really don't think that makes the SEC a joke. There certainly are quite a few teams in the SEC that were a joke this year, but not the whole conference. The Sunbelt is a joke. The SEC is not.
How, exactly, is the SEC going to win 3 games against Oklahoma, OK State, Texas, and Texas Tech? Is there a magical 3rd match up that exists in some alternate dimension that you live in? Last I checked, Oregon and Ohio State aren't in the SEC. If Florida beats Oklahoma, and Ole Miss beats Texas Tech, that will prove that those 2 teams are better than their opponents. However, the best team in the Big XII might very well be Texas, who does not play any SEC teams.
Anyway, top to bottom, the ACC is the best conference. I like how you went straight down the list of both conferences and showed your picks. Well, we all know that I am better at picking games than you, since I have proven it. So let's have a look at the ACC vs. the SEC using Sagarin's numbers for placement, and we'll use my picks. Florida > Florida State Alabama > Virginia Tech Georgia < Georgia Tech Ole Miss < Clemson (by way of S. Carolina) South Carolina ? North Carolina LSU ? Boston College Vandy < Miami Kentucky < Wake Forest Tennessee < Virginia Auburn < NC State Arkansas < Maryland Miss. State < Duke
If we give the SEC the benefit of the doubt and give them both toss ups, that is 4 out of 12. You see, it all goes back to the fact that the bottom of the ACC is stronger than any other conference this year. Let me emphasize that little phrase to you. Ready? Here it comes: THIS YEAR. Did you see that? Good. I don't want to hear about 1967, 3 years ago, or even what happened last year. We are talking about which conference is better this year. If you want to argue with me, then fine. However, you're going to have to come up with something more concrete than your laughable picks.
Where did you come up with your ordering of the SEC and the Big XII? Kansas State is better than Missouri? Kentucky and Arkansas are better than South Carolina? Please man, at least put up something that makes a little bit of sense and save some credibility.
blackdawg
· 11 months ago
CJ: I will have to agree with you. The SEC is down this year. FL and AL are playing lights out but the rest of us are weak. This is not always the case but it is this year. UGA has had its worst defense since Goff was the HC, I can't remember the last time Auburn was this bad, Tenn. met its equal when they played Wyoming and LSU uncharacteristically struggled on defense and lacked a QB. We can't be great every year and this year after the top two we are weak, there's no shame in that. The conference will be back. I hoping our defense will find itself before our bowl.
Clemson_Joe
· 11 months ago
I agree 100%. The conference will be back. I think now the country might actually get what it was expecting with the expansion of the ACC, in that 3 conferences will rise to carry the torch of supremacy. I also believe that the Big Televen will be much better than they were this year in the near future. If only they'd add 1 more team I could bring myself to root for them. Until then...
I'm glad you responded because I have some questions about Georgia. I'm sure that there have been some grumblings in Bulldog Nation but I'm doubting that anyone is calling for Richt's head. To whom is the disgruntled moaning directed? Is Richt making any changes on his staff? What reasons are being given for the season that ended up lower than most's expectations?
blackdawg
· 11 months ago
CJ: Sorry for not being very prompt replying. We've been pretty busy recently and I'm not making time to blog like I should.
Most are upset with Martinez the DC. The defense was horrible and no one saw that coming. Richt says he is not going to make any changes but Martinez is not very popular at the moment.
Coach Richt is blaming their no contact practices that they implemented after getting so many players hurt. Whatever it is, the specter of Meyer and Saban hanging over the conference like the 90's version of Spurrier and Fulmer is not sitting well with the fans. Then there is Johnson at GT. GA defense gives up 26 unanswered points to hated Tech. Johnson is an innovative offensive mind, the Dawgs are going to need to be more creative and inspired on defense.
There is not many seasons that a team will have a Moreno, Stafford, Green, Momass on offense. You don't challenge with that talent you have a serious flaw somewhere and some would say it Martinez.
With all that said Richt gets the benefit of the doubt because of his previous success. Saban and Meyer, I believe, would have made a change under similar circumstances.
1Tomcat
· 11 months ago
Excellent post CJ Miami> Vandy>Ole Miss>Fla>Bama Texas>Ark>LSU Texas>OU>TTech>OK st>Missu Texas>Rice> S Miss>Troy
Tommy_Trojan
· 11 months ago
Bleed,
Your problem is that you don't seem to understand that College Football analysts don't decide football games. You yourself are an analyst. You are completely absorbed with some silly notion that cannot be proven until you play all of the very best teams. But, that is never gonna happen, so there will never be any proof anyway. I think that the PAC 10 is gonna go 5-0 in their Bowl games. Now, it really doesn't matter that I think that. And, it really isn't gonna matter if they actually do it.
If the PAC 10 went 5-0 (with wins over BYU, Oklahoma State, Miami, Pittsburgh and Penn State), while the SEC went 3-5 for instance, would this somehow get you to change your mind about who the strongest conference was? I didn't think so. You know why? Because your an analyst. You've analyzed the SEC and have determined that it is the best. Nothing can change your mind. No matter how many games the SEC lost to the ACC this year - nothing is gonna change your opinion. You see, you must believe this, in order to pretend that Alabama had one of the greatest teams in history this year. Fact is: Alabama caught everybody in a down year except for Florida and was thrown "a biscuit" in Utah for the Sugar Bowl game. The same "biscuit" was thrown to Georgia last year when they got to play a weak Hawaii team. The same "biscuit" was thrown to LSU when they drew Notre Dame. So you'll get to beat up on Utah, and go about your merry way pretending that the SEC is "the greatest", because Florida is gonna get to beat up on the "biscuit" that they were just thrown also. It's all just too comical for anybody to take too seriously, except for the die-hard SEC fans, who really think that this is all real. What's really real is that none of your really great teams have ever had to play Southern Cal to earn a National Championship. That's what is really the joke of the whole BCS. And, just about everybody else in the country has figured this little secret out. Except for you.
1Tomcat
· 11 months ago
BC This is some of the most ridiculas stuff I ever read No Way that Tenn could beat Baylor-Baylor would whup Tenn all over the place- Texas would whup the hell out of Bama wouldnt even be funny- Missu would whup LSU and they aint as good as OK State, OU or TTech who would all be undefeated in the SEC Fla might beat one or two of them, but would drop two or three if they played in the B-12- thats a fact Jack! Hookem-Horns
1Tomcat
· 11 months ago
BC You got Ark beating Kansas what you been smoking? You think the Gamecocks would win in Lincoln? Baylor could beat over half the teams in the SEC including Ole Miss & Vandy- defenetly win against Ark,Miss St & Tenn
1Tomcat
· 11 months ago
No Your wrong again BC Your obvious homerism is something that boderlines lunacy and for that you should be recognized. Ole Miss can beat Texas Tech and Florida can beat OU both of these games ought to be fun to watch and whatever the outcome, it doesnt really prove your theory because Texas dosnt face any SEC teams. I really wanted to see a Texas vs Bama or Texas vs Fla game, but that aint happening. Bama has had an outstanding season and narrowly escaped in several games KY, Miss and LSU. Yall beat AU who had a tough season and the only really tough opponents yall faced were Clemson & Fla and yall went 1-1 in those, yall might beat Utah, but that dosnt mean much to me because I know there's no way yall could beat Texas. Yall might be able to stop a few drives against the Horns, but yall couldnt outscore them- no way. If Fla beats OU it really dosnt mean anything because Texas done beat them 45-35 and Texas is the strongest team from the B-12 not OU Look Texas beat Arkansas 52-10 and Ark beat LSU- how can I say it -exposed In fact the Texas D held Ark to 10-points and 7 of those were against the second string- So keep on dreaming, maybe yall can win yalls bowl and we can listen to your rants all off-season long Hookem-Horns
OU_Ron
· 11 months ago
Wait a minute TC, are you forgetting that Tech beat Teaxs 39-33, seems like all you longhorns remember 45-35 but have amnesia with those other numbers..........39-33 ;-)
"BC"
· 11 months ago
dont try to reason with him. his team got the shaft, and he's depressed.
it's alright tomcat. you hang in there buddy. i won't hold anything you say right now against you. you're just drunk with rage.
but....watch out, because my upset pick of bowl season is Ohio State over Texas....
1Tomcat
· 11 months ago
BC your not a comedian, but your posts are purty funny drunk with rage? do what? heck man I'm a Texas fan, we know we are the best in the country and can whup anybody- especially Bama,USC or Fla The Feista is a better Bowl than Alamo or Cotton and tOSU is always a tough competitive opponent and a traditional power even more so than Bama who until recently has been licking the AU Tigers boots and losing to La Monroe & Miss St. Now yall finally pull off a few nail biters against some mediocre teams and get a spot in the Sugar-congrats I dont think Saban or the Bama nation wanted any Burnt Orange competetion because the results would be aterrible wake up call for delusional Tide fans who are basking in the twilight of their less than stellar season. The Tide will probaby beat Utah but I'll be pulling for the Utes and their QB is from Texas. BTW I'll also be pulling for Fla because everybody knows OU Sux- LOL Hookem-Horns- America's team
Bama_Babe
· 11 months ago
HAHAHA...now THAT is a funny post, Mr. Tomcat.
"we know we are the best in the country and can whup anybody- especially Bama,USC or Fla"
Riiiight. I guess you haven't heard of a little team called Texas Tech. Yeah, maybe if you would have beaten them you wouldn't be bitter about being left out and we would get to see the FL-TX matchup you wanted. Trust me - you better be glad ya'll are playing tOSU instead. 12-1 will look better than 11-2....
1Tomcat
· 11 months ago
Thanks Bama Babe-Na I aint bitter and tOSU will play a heck of a game, I woulda prefered a Bama vs UT matchup just to help clarify things for BC. Yes I've heard of Texas Tech, we play them every year 07 OU over Texas Texas over Texas Tech Texas Tech over OU 08 Texas over OU Texas Tech over Texas OU over Texas Tech Texas has won 3 outa last 4 OU 3 outa last 4 TTech Hookem-Horns Merry Christmas
OU_Ron
· 11 months ago
TC, at least BB called you Mister Tomcat, I like fiesty females....;-)
OU_Ron
· 11 months ago
One more thing TC, looks like OU will play Tulsa, Miami, and BYU next season, someone should tip Mack to play a little better OOC teams next year or he might be playing in the Alamo bowl again...........BTW, hope you and your family have a Merry Christmas...all I want for Christmas is a Crystal Football...
Wardboy3
· 11 months ago
And don't forget that OK is picking up Fla St in 2009 & 2010.
OU_Ron
· 11 months ago
I'll have to check, I thought Fla St was in 2010 and 11
Wardboy3
· 11 months ago
You right...I meant 10 & 11...didn't you that is what I meant?
1Tomcat
· 11 months ago
Thanks Ron Merry Christmas to all of yours Whats purty funny is that the Horns scheduled back to back against Arkansas one of the strongest teams from the toughest conference according to BC and after beating the MNC champs they were emberassed by Missu #6 B-12 team fired their coach and got beat down by the Longhorns 52-10. They chickened out on next years game and scheduled Texas A&M #11 team in the B-12 who got whuped by BU. Both Texas A&M & Arkansas used to be real tough opponents and this season those teams did not help the Horns SOS. The Rice Owls ended up going 9-3 with losses to Tulsa,Texas and Vandy all winning bowl bound programs. Looks like next year the Horns get Wyoming, Rice and UCF, but I think we got Home & home coming up with Ole Miss & UCLA- well at least it aint Tenn Chatt LOL Adios Tomcat
OU_Ron
· 11 months ago
Since Arkansas backed out, you might check, Mack may have replaced them with the Rattlers..... ;-)
OU_Ron
· 11 months ago
Sorry TC, I posted in the wrong place, see the post below...
1Tomcat
· 11 months ago
Hey Ron I aint forgot nothing- been an outstanding year for Texas Football going 11-1 for the season and going against 4 top ten undefeated teams in consecutive weeks, whuping the H outa Arkansas and Rice 52-10, beating Colo in Boulder and taking care of business in big D against what some folks think are the #1 team in the country- purty good for Horns fans Hookem Horns
OU_Ron
· 11 months ago
What if Utah beats Bama, does that mean the SEC is weak in the middle...;-)
Regan
· 11 months ago
The ACC is the best conference.
Just enjoying it while I can say it... :)
jake
· 11 months ago
This evidence doesn't same much about the college level. This might suggest that the ACC teams' styles are more similar to NFL play. For example, numerous option-style QBs have done well on the college level but their success never translates to the pro level.
Zac
· 11 months ago
We interrupt (hijack) this thread to announce the passing of TCU All American & NFL great, "Sling'n" Sammy Baugh. Sammy Baugh passed away Wednesday night at the Fisher County Hospital in Rotan, TX.
He was known as being one of the greatest QB's of his time having lead TCU to a 29-7-3 record, including victories in both Cotton & Sugar Bowls.
As Washington Redskin, #33 (the only Redskins' # currently retired) was a 3-way player. As QB he led the Redskins to 4 divisional titles & 2 NFL titles. He threw 187 career TD's (Redskins' team record) against only 31 career INT's. He also holds the Redskins' team record for highest single season completion percentage (70.3).
As a DB/S/LB, he was the only NFL player to have passed for 4 TD's & intercepted 4 TD's in the same game. As a punter on special teams, his 1940 season average of 51.4 yds/punt remains an NFL record.
As a human being, he was said to have been much more than just a successful football player. He was a successful rancher; the hard-working, hands-on kind, as opposed to those who stood and watched as others did his work for him. And apparently, he was a good father. He was the last surviving member of the 1963 inaugural class of the Pro-Football Hall of Fame. He will be missed.
blackdawg
· 11 months ago
Of a very religious linebacker: "He knocks the hell out of people, but in a Christian way".
This goes to show that the best NFL players come from the southeastern U.S. and there are more, good players in the SE, than anywhere else.
there is such a high concentration of talent, that the SEC could possibly be the best conference at the top, while the ACC is the best top-to-bottom. both conferences thrive off of the SE talent basin.
FSU_Ben
· 11 months ago
By southeastern he means Florida and a few guys from neighboring states!
Wardboy3
· 11 months ago
It is actually California. Here are the Top 3 states with the most NFL players: California: 198 Texas: 173 Florida: 169
gatorhippy
· 11 months ago
Says more to where they've come in developing in a professional system and training...
Conference strength, like being crowned the National Champ, is an opinion in CFB...
Hotty_Toddy
· 11 months ago
I was starting to think conference dominance was a myth, but if one conference keeps winning the national championship with different teams, well, c'mon.... something's gotta give...
Go Rebs!
Hotty_Toddy
· 11 months ago
And by the way, Clemson could beat Ole Miss? Are you KIDDING? We would dominate just about every team we lost to this year, now. Especially Wake Forest and Vandy. We had to shake off the rust of the past few seasons before we hit that five game winning streak ;)
Clemson_Joe
· 11 months ago
No, I'm not kidding.
South Carolina @ Ole Miss 31-24 (the week after beating Florida) South Carolina @ Clemson 14-31
A close loss to Alabama is the only thing on that schedule that I see warranting any sort of idea that you would "dominate just about every team (you) lost to".
Hotty_Toddy
· 11 months ago
Yeah,
SC > Ole Miss Ole Miss > Florida Florida > SC
We can do that chain thing all day.
Clemson_Joe
· 11 months ago
LOL. Are you serious? Not too good at logic are we?
SC isn't better than Clemson, so that proves nothing. Let me help you here: Florida > FSU FSU > Clemson
That logic makes sense. Yours doesn't at all. A > B B > C C > A Regardless of anything else, the first is true. A > B.
Clemson is 5 spots higher in the Sagarin. Take it up with him.
Hotty_Toddy
· 11 months ago
Actually, no... it doesn't really matter either way. You can't, and won't know, until (if) we play each other. We can speculate. And I say we're better than you, and you say the opposite.
It's okay, we'll know soon enough when we play you guys ;)
Clemson_Joe
· 11 months ago
Yeah, we will, but that is quite a long way off. Those will be 2 very different teams by then. By then, maybe neither team will be building, and it could turn out to be a heck of a match up. We will have to wait (quite a while) and see.
All Comments
This reflects the talent that was in those conferences at that time, differences from this would indicate how well or poorly that talent was used.
I've asked the question before. Which schedule would a team prefer to face season after season? The likes of OK, OK St, TX, TX Tech, CO, KS, KS St, TX A&M, Citadel, McNeese St, M. TN St, Richmond, or BC, Cal, FSU, IA, NC, NE, Ole Miss, OR St, Pitt, VA Tech, WI, WVU? In the 1st scenario a team would face four Top-10 teams. In the 2nd, a team would maybe face 4 Lower-20 teams. So, which is the tougher schedule?
At the end of a given season, the number of teams attending bowls from a conference, not to mention the success of those teams from a given conference in their bowls, helps to solidify conference strength. Last year, I think we had to go with the SEC. This year will likely be different.
For now, the NFL gives the ACC the nod, based upon active players. One might consider this arguable, given this year, of the 12 teams, 9 have at least 7 wins; 10 are bowl eligible, and 11 have a conference record of between 3-5 & 5-3; none have a conference record better than 5-3. The ACC does have a 37-11 non-conference record. However, when you look at the non-conference schedule, AL, FL, GA, & USC certainly stand out, yet all but 1 involved losses. After them, the quality of opponents begins to drop off. Once you get past the likes of Cal, ECU, NE, Ole Miss, SC, & maybe S FL & UConn, quality drops off considerably.
In my opinion at least 23 of the non-conference teams the ACC has played are not quality opponents, and another 7 are arguably questionable. The point is whether or not the ACC is the strongest conference remains to be seen. Given the number of teams they're sending to bowls, just how strong they are will be exposed soon enough.
Yes the ACC, as youpoint out, against some of the other programs were losses, FL, USC, AL, but they as a conf whole played more games against other BCS schools. When you play more BCS schools (true schedules are made years in advance so something that looks good now looks like crap later) you set yourself up for the possibility of more losses. Which I feel is something the SEC usually avoids. Just look at how many SUN BELT teams they played. So saying if SEC played more BCS schools, maybe more wins, maybe more losses. If more losses, less chance at bowl games, less you look strong. Get my point?
By the way, I didn't include ECU (9-4, CUSA Champ). I consider then a quality team this year; not to mention, they beat the ACC Champ.
Now, is it OK for the SEC to do this, and not the ACC. No, that's a double standard. However, if your'e gonna schedule these games, ya gots to win these games, and a few teams in the ACC lost some of these games. Get my point?
Yes all will sch some patsies, but you have to look at the overall which you are not doing. The SEC had 48 OOC games this year. Only 15 (31%) were against BCS schools with the SEC winning only 6 (40%). Not to mention again losing 2 against non-BCS schools.
What I am getting at is for the SEC to brag so much about their strength they sure do like to play a majority of the OCC games against non-BCS schools. I will not say anything about anyone who attempts to play a BCS school. I do not care if it is a traditional powerhouse or a traditional loser...at least play BCS schools. Surely the SEC, with all their power, and money can do better than 31%?
I also agree; BCS schools should schedule at least as many BCS schools as they schedule Non-BCS schools, not to mention, they should avoid 1-AA/Div-2 as much as possible. It looks much better to beat the likes of Baylor, Duke, or Stanford, than to lose to Appy St, Montana St, or Wofford.
As for your assertion that I'm not looking at the over-all picture, not true. The difference in our debate seems to stem upon the number of BCS opponents scheduled by a conference as opposed to the number of quality opponents scheduled by a conference. Sure, a conference can schedule more BCS opponents than another conference, but that doesn't mean they have scheduled more quality opponents. Not to mention, if that conference isn't beating those quality opponents, then, what difference does it make that they've scheduled them?
Where it becomes difficult in making my argument is the separation of quality opponents from non-quality opponents. For example, ND. They're BCS, bowl eligible, but are they a quality opponent? I have to say no. The aggregate record of the 6 teams they've beaten is 22-53, and only 1 (Navy) had a winning record (8-4). What about NC St or Vanderbilt? One began lousy, then improved; the other started out great, then faded. Like ND, at 6-6, can either be cosiderd a quality opponent? Then again, are we gonna say non-BCS teams, like 9-4 ECU, 9-3 Rice, or 10-3 Tulsa are not quality opponents?
Now, I realize none of this answers the question is the ACC the strongest conference this year? (I personally think the Big-12 is the strongest.) Is the ACC stronger than the SEC this year? (It's close, but I think the jury is still out.) Is the ACC the most balanced conference from top to bottom this year? (Absolutely!) That's why I'm saying this year, let the bowls decide. It just might be our best barameter.
1 ATLANTIC COAST (A) = 79.01 78.72 ( 1) 12
2 BIG 12 (A) = 78.36 78.59 ( 2) 12
3 SOUTHEASTERN (A) = 75.19 76.05 ( 3) 12
4 BIG EAST (A) = 74.91 74.04 ( 5) 8
5 BIG TEN (A) = 74.75 74.88 ( 4) 11
6 PAC-10 (A) = 73.02 72.34 ( 6) 10
7 MOUNTAIN WEST (A) = 70.68 71.21 ( 7) 9
8 MID-AMERICAN (A) = 65.26 65.11 ( 9) 13
9 WESTERN ATHLETIC (A) = 64.83 65.17 ( 8) 9
10 I-A INDEPENDENTS (A) = 64.43 64.18 ( 10) 4
11 CONFERENCE USA (A) = 64.42 64.13 ( 11) 12
12 COLONIAL (AA)= 61.24 60.96 ( 12) 12
13 SUN BELT (A) = 59.94 59.53 ( 13) 8
14 SOUTHERN (AA)= 57.00 56.34 ( 14) 9
Before, "rivalry week" I stated this, and it was argued by a few SEC fans. Then the ACC went 3-1 over the SEC. Clemson whipped South Carolina, Georgia Tech took down Georgia in Athens, and Wake beat Vandy, with the only loss coming with FSU losing to an elite tier Florida team. The ACC has 10 teams in bowl games, and now let's see how that pans out. Next year looks to be even stronger than this year for the ACC. The Big XII and the SEC are certainly very strong at the very top, but lack depth, as you don't have to go very far down the list to find weak squads.
Cos(ax) + Cos(bx) + Cos(cx) = 0
Cos(bx) + Cos(cx) = -Cos(ax)
ArcCos[Cos(bx) + Cos(cx)] = ArcCos[-Cos(ax)]
Looking at the right side of the equation after taking the inverse Cos, it will be 180 - ax. It will be 180 - ax because the Cosine there is negative. Now, we want to write the sum of the Cosines on the left side as a single Cosine so we can take the inverse of it and get rid of Cosine all together. We can rewrite:
Cos(bx) + Cos(cx) as Cos(ax)
We can do this because the right side of the equation, before taking the inverse Cosine, is -Cos(ax). The left side must be the additive inverse of this, and so must be Cos(ax). However, the left side is Cos(bx) + Cos(cx), which means that Cos(bx) + Cos(cx) must be the additive inverse of -Cos(ax), which is Cos(ax).
So now, we have
ArcCos[Cos(ax)] = 180 - ax
ax = 180 - ax
2ax = 180
a = 90/x
So, we now know a can be written as 90/x.
Let's substitute that into the original equation:
Cos(ax) + Cos(bx) + Cos(cx) = 0
Cos( 90/x * x) + Cos(bx) Cos(cx) = 0
Cos(90) + Cos(bx) + Cos(cx) = 0
But Cos90 = 0, so:
Cos(bx) + Cos(cx) = 0
Cos(bx) = -Cos(cx)
ArcCos[Cos(bx)] = ArcCos[-Cos(cx)]
bx = 180 - cx
bx + cx = 180
x(b+c) = 180
b+c = 180/x
So, we now have two equations:
a = 90/x
and
b + c = 180/x
So, pick any value of x, substitute it into the first equation, you will get a value for a. Substitute a value for x into the second equation, then pick values of b and c to satisfy that equation and you will your values for a, b, c, and x that will satisfy your original equation (as long as x does not equal 0).
According to my math the SEC is the best conference.
6-4. :)
GO GATORS!!
I believe that the Bowl games are a purty good indicater of strength of conference and that huge upset of Wake over Baylor and the FSU over Colo game both prove that this year the ACC had a good showing against B-12 teams.The Miami over Texas A&M was another one however when looking at the B-12 these teams this year, with the exception of Baylor were not as good as in previous years. Bayor > Texas A&M> Colo
Texas A&M #6 in B-12 south beat Colo and ISU #4 & #6 in B-12 north
BU whuped A&M 41-7 end of the 3rd quarter we were at the game BU 4-8 #5 B-12 south aint too bad when you got UT,OU,OK st and TTech in your division
Hookem Horns
i think the SEC is the strongest at the top, and the ACC is the strongest, top to bottom.
if Florida beats Oklahoma, and Ole Miss beats Texas Tech, would that prove my theory?
Or if LSU beats GT, Vandy beats BC, Ole Miss beats TT, and Florida beats OU, would that make the SEC the best top-to-bottom, and best at the top?
Your last question is downright ridiculous. How could 2 games possibly prove that a conference is the best top to bottom unless the bottom teams are involved? A conference is only as strong, as a conference, as it is deep. So, with that said, let's talk about Miss. State, Auburn, Vanderbilt, Tennessee, Kentucky, and Arkansas. Those are the bottom 6 of the SEC this season. Now, how do you think those teams would fare against the bottom of the Big XII or ACC? Vandy and Kentucky showed signs of life this season, but Vandy lost to both Wake Forest and Duke. Every year you SEC fans preach about having the best conference, and in recent years, you have. This year, there is virtually nothing to back up your claim, but you still can't seem to get over it. It honestly makes you look pathetic. Look man, your team is great this year, and that's awesome for you, but your conference as a whole is having a down year.
No doubt the Big XII has a few more top teams than the SEC. However, it's not how many strong teams you have in the top ten that matter. It's the strength of those teams. If Florida proves to be stronger than Oklahoma, and Ole Miss (which is not even ranked in the top 10) proves to be stronger than Tech, the SEC will be the best at the top, right?
If the strongest team from the SEC beats the strongest team from the Big XII, would that mean the SEC is the strongest? It would be arguable. However, if a lower SEC team beats one of those strong Big XII teams, it would be more convincing.
No doubt that some of the normally stronger SEC teams are having a down year, but that doesn't take away from the ones at the top this year. If the SEC can beat the Big XII and other conferences in its "down year", (revenging the regular season vs ACC) then it could still be considered the strongest.
I guess we'll have to wait until Bowl season to determine everything....good thing it starts this weekend!!
Oh, btw, the ACC started out looking like a poor conference this year, but has come back and proven its strength from top to bottom - so I wasn't arguing that.
;)
watch out.
you got dangerously close to going against the grain. ;)
It seems like your argument sounds like this: if USC blows out everybody in the country - then the PAC 10 must be the best conference because they have the strongest team. No matter how good USC is - it doesn't make the PAC 10 teams any better than they really are. Same goes for Florida or Oklahoma or Penn State or anybody. USC won a couple of National Championships in a row and that didn't make the PAC 10 the best conference. Neither does the fact that Florida and LSU winning the last two, cement into concrete, that the SEC is by far the best conference. You just got lucky enough to have gotten to play Ohio State both times.
The best teams in your conference are reaching a very high standard though. I will give you that. But, Clemson Joe's points are very valid. The bottom of the conference has always been weak. If the bottom of a conference is weak - then the top of that conference will appear to be strong. No? Sprinkle in many mid-major and Division II teams to beat up on in the pre-season - and the teams will all look better than they really are. The SEC is WAY DOWN this year. Of that there is no doubt. After the bowl games there will be proof. I think that both Florida and Alabama win their respective bowl games and are as good as any teams in the country. But, all of the rest of the SEC teams are in danger of losing bowl games this year. We've already seen the ACC take games away that used to belong to the SEC. None of this means that the SEC will not bounce back. They most certainly will. But, with all of the younger QB's that are going to be inheriting jobs, this may not happen for another couple of years.
My advise is to not get too caught up into thinking that the SEC is gonna be dominating too many bowl games this year. Just be happy if Florida and Alabama win.
I think the way I worded my post was misleading. I by no means think that the SEC would be the strongest just because the top team is the strongest. I was arguing with what Clemson Joe said about the Big XII being stronger at the top just because they had more strong teams.
Yes, the Big XII had a stronger year than the SEC - based on all 12 teams in each conference. However, my point was that just because the Big XII has more teams that are stronger doesn't mean that those teams are the strongEST. If Florida, the top team in the SEC, beats Oklahoma, arguably the strongest team in the Big XII, then that would mean the TOP of the SEC is stronger than the TOP of the Big XII. Not the entire conference, I understand that.
Sorry for the confusion. Don't let me down in the Rose Bowl-I've got your Trojans on top of my Bowl Picks, and I'll need those points....I'm doing awful right now!
;)
I'm still not sold that the BIG 12 is the strongest conference. The only thing that I can see is that Oklahoma beat TCU pretty handily. What really good BCS program wouldn't? Other than that game - who did they schedule? The SEC played much tougher non-conf games with their ACC foes this year. I'll take good defense over good offense any day of the week. Therefore, I would suspect, that many a good SEC team would beat a good BIG 12 team.
My money is on Florida to beat the spread. Florida plays defense, Bradford is gonna have pressure all dayum day long, and the Oklahoma receivers will have Florida DB's stuck inside of their jerseys. This isn't gonna be like playing pitch and catch in those pathetic BIG 12 games. Oklahoma isn't gonna understand what happened - just like Ohio State hasn't understood in the previous two years. The one thing that the SEC really has going for it is the tough defense. That is what helps the SEC perform very well in the Bowl games. Other conferences do not provide the intense defense, week in and week out, that the SEC teams provide. It can be quite a shock.
That is why my Trojans play so well in BCS bowl games. The defense can be overwhelming at times. Many schools are just not quite prepared for that kinda intensity. I can see Penn State coming apart in this one. They haven't seen anything like this. It will be an enormous shock. Likewise for Utah. What they are gonna witness in the Sugar Bowl is going to be something that they have not seen. Alabama's defense is gonna be on them like stink on sheeit. So, I can get your point. All I'm saying really, is that some of the SEC teams offenses were so poor this year, that they were completely destroyed by any kind of good defensive team. Teams like Tennessee, Auburn, LSU, Kentucky and Georgia have suffered mightily on offense this year. This can be attributed to injuries (as in Kentucky and Georgia's case), loss of good coaching (LSU on defense), and changeover of good offensive personnel from the previous year. Nevertheless, the SEC still plays very good defense, and will probably do okay in the Bowl games. Florida and Alabama should do really well - and Georgia could look impressive also. This still does not "etch into stone" that the SEC was any kinda dominate conference this year. I really don't feel like the SEC drew the toughest teams that they could play in the Bowl games either. Florida didn't have to play USC. Alabama didn't have to play Texas or Penn State. So, without playing against the best teams in those games - the SEC cannot make the argument that they are the strongest conference. Likewise, I'm not gonna toot my own horn when we beatdown Penn State. It would have been much better to be playing either Florida or Alabama. I don't picture the BIG 12 as being any better than the BIG 10 - but that is just my opinion. Our record has been very good against both of those conferences forever - and I don't see much difference in them.
your basis for your entire argument, is that the Big 12 has 5 teams, and the SEC has 3.....
well, how can you for sure, say this isn't true:
Florida > Oklahoma
Ole Miss > Texas Tech
Alabama > Texas
Georgia > Oklahoma State
Arkansas > Kansas
Vanderbilt > Kansas State
LSU > Missouri
Kentucky > Colorado
South Carolina > Nebraska
Mississippi State > Texas A&M
Auburn > Iowa State
Tennessee > Baylor
you absolutely cannot.
and i think most college football analysts would agree that if all of those games were to be played, the SEC would win the majority of them.
in fact, i think most college football analysts would agree that the SEC, THIS YEAR, would beat every other conference game-to-game like that.
now, wouldn't that prove a conference is better top-to-bottom than all of the others?
okay, now take the top of the SEC:
Alabama, Georgia, Ole Miss, Florida
now, take the top of the Big 12:
Texas, Oklahoma State, Texas Tech, Oklahoma
if the SEC wins 3 of those games, wouldn't that prove that it's the strongest at the top as well?
Joe, you're obviously biased AGAINST the SEC, so don't call me a homer, when you're the one with an obvious agenda.
you act like the SEC is a joke!
guess what man!
we've got 2 teams in BCS bowls for the 3rd straight year in a row!
guess what man!
we're about to make our BCS record 6-0 in the last 3 years. with 3 national championships!
yah! yah! yah! Trick!
ACC - no, Big 12 - no, Pac 10 - no, Big East - no, Big Ten - no.
I have this little thing called numbers on my side. The numbers tell a story, and that is that the SEC is not the best conference this year. See Sagarin's rankings, or really any rankings for that matter, for proof.
Please tell me exactly where I acted like the SEC was a joke. I have simply shown that it's not the best conference. I really don't think that makes the SEC a joke. There certainly are quite a few teams in the SEC that were a joke this year, but not the whole conference. The Sunbelt is a joke. The SEC is not.
How, exactly, is the SEC going to win 3 games against Oklahoma, OK State, Texas, and Texas Tech? Is there a magical 3rd match up that exists in some alternate dimension that you live in? Last I checked, Oregon and Ohio State aren't in the SEC. If Florida beats Oklahoma, and Ole Miss beats Texas Tech, that will prove that those 2 teams are better than their opponents. However, the best team in the Big XII might very well be Texas, who does not play any SEC teams.
Anyway, top to bottom, the ACC is the best conference. I like how you went straight down the list of both conferences and showed your picks. Well, we all know that I am better at picking games than you, since I have proven it. So let's have a look at the ACC vs. the SEC using Sagarin's numbers for placement, and we'll use my picks.
Florida > Florida State
Alabama > Virginia Tech
Georgia < Georgia Tech
Ole Miss < Clemson (by way of S. Carolina)
South Carolina ? North Carolina
LSU ? Boston College
Vandy < Miami
Kentucky < Wake Forest
Tennessee < Virginia
Auburn < NC State
Arkansas < Maryland
Miss. State < Duke
If we give the SEC the benefit of the doubt and give them both toss ups, that is 4 out of 12. You see, it all goes back to the fact that the bottom of the ACC is stronger than any other conference this year. Let me emphasize that little phrase to you. Ready? Here it comes: THIS YEAR. Did you see that? Good. I don't want to hear about 1967, 3 years ago, or even what happened last year. We are talking about which conference is better this year. If you want to argue with me, then fine. However, you're going to have to come up with something more concrete than your laughable picks.
Where did you come up with your ordering of the SEC and the Big XII? Kansas State is better than Missouri? Kentucky and Arkansas are better than South Carolina? Please man, at least put up something that makes a little bit of sense and save some credibility.
I'm glad you responded because I have some questions about Georgia. I'm sure that there have been some grumblings in Bulldog Nation but I'm doubting that anyone is calling for Richt's head. To whom is the disgruntled moaning directed? Is Richt making any changes on his staff? What reasons are being given for the season that ended up lower than most's expectations?
Most are upset with Martinez the DC. The defense was horrible and no one saw that coming. Richt says he is not going to make any changes but
Martinez is not very popular at the moment.
Coach Richt is blaming their no contact practices that they implemented after getting so many players hurt. Whatever it is, the specter of Meyer and Saban hanging over the conference like the 90's version of Spurrier and Fulmer is not sitting well with the fans. Then there is Johnson at GT. GA defense gives up 26 unanswered points to hated Tech. Johnson is an innovative offensive mind, the Dawgs are going to need to be more creative and inspired on defense.
There is not many seasons that a team will have a Moreno, Stafford, Green, Momass on offense. You don't challenge with that talent you have a serious flaw somewhere and some would say it Martinez.
With all that said Richt gets the benefit of the doubt because of his previous success. Saban and Meyer, I believe, would have made a change under similar circumstances.
Miami> Vandy>Ole Miss>Fla>Bama
Texas>Ark>LSU
Texas>OU>TTech>OK st>Missu
Texas>Rice> S Miss>Troy
Your problem is that you don't seem to understand that College Football analysts don't decide football games. You yourself are an analyst. You are completely absorbed with some silly notion that cannot be proven until you play all of the very best teams. But, that is never gonna happen, so there will never be any proof anyway. I think that the PAC 10 is gonna go 5-0 in their Bowl games. Now, it really doesn't matter that I think that. And, it really isn't gonna matter if they actually do it.
If the PAC 10 went 5-0 (with wins over BYU, Oklahoma State, Miami, Pittsburgh and Penn State), while the SEC went 3-5 for instance, would this somehow get you to change your mind about who the strongest conference was? I didn't think so. You know why? Because your an analyst. You've analyzed the SEC and have determined that it is the best. Nothing can change your mind. No matter how many games the SEC lost to the ACC this year - nothing is gonna change your opinion. You see, you must believe this, in order to pretend that Alabama had one of the greatest teams in history this year. Fact is: Alabama caught everybody in a down year except for Florida and was thrown "a biscuit" in Utah for the Sugar Bowl game. The same "biscuit" was thrown to Georgia last year when they got to play a weak Hawaii team. The same "biscuit" was thrown to LSU when they drew Notre Dame. So you'll get to beat up on Utah, and go about your merry way pretending that the SEC is "the greatest", because Florida is gonna get to beat up on the "biscuit" that they were just thrown also. It's all just too comical for anybody to take too seriously, except for the die-hard SEC fans, who really think that this is all real. What's really real is that none of your really great teams have ever had to play Southern Cal to earn a National Championship. That's what is really the joke of the whole BCS. And, just about everybody else in the country has figured this little secret out. Except for you.
No Way that Tenn could beat Baylor-Baylor would whup Tenn all over the place- Texas would whup the hell out of Bama wouldnt even be funny- Missu would whup LSU and they aint as good as OK State, OU or TTech who would all be undefeated in the SEC
Fla might beat one or two of them, but would drop two or three if they played in the B-12- thats a fact Jack!
Hookem-Horns
You got Ark beating Kansas what you been smoking?
You think the Gamecocks would win in Lincoln?
Baylor could beat over half the teams in the SEC including Ole Miss & Vandy- defenetly win against Ark,Miss St & Tenn
Ole Miss can beat Texas Tech and Florida can beat OU both of these games ought to be fun to watch and whatever the outcome, it doesnt really prove your theory because Texas dosnt face any SEC teams.
I really wanted to see a Texas vs Bama or Texas vs Fla game, but that aint happening. Bama has had an outstanding season and narrowly escaped in several games KY, Miss and LSU. Yall beat AU who had a tough season and the only really tough opponents yall faced were Clemson & Fla and yall went 1-1 in those, yall might beat Utah, but that dosnt mean much to me because I know there's no way yall could beat Texas. Yall might be able to stop a few drives against the Horns, but yall couldnt outscore them- no way.
If Fla beats OU it really dosnt mean anything because Texas done beat them 45-35 and Texas is the strongest team from the B-12 not OU
Look Texas beat Arkansas 52-10 and Ark beat LSU- how can I say it -exposed
In fact the Texas D held Ark to 10-points and 7 of those were against the second string- So keep on dreaming, maybe yall can win yalls bowl and we can listen to your rants all off-season long
Hookem-Horns
his team got the shaft, and he's depressed.
it's alright tomcat. you hang in there buddy.
i won't hold anything you say right now against you. you're just drunk with rage.
but....watch out, because my upset pick of bowl season is Ohio State over Texas....
drunk with rage? do what?
heck man I'm a Texas fan, we know we are the best in the country and can whup anybody- especially Bama,USC or Fla
The Feista is a better Bowl than Alamo or Cotton and tOSU is always a tough competitive opponent and a traditional power even more so than Bama who until recently has been licking the AU Tigers boots and losing to La Monroe & Miss St.
Now yall finally pull off a few nail biters against some mediocre teams and get a spot in the Sugar-congrats
I dont think Saban or the Bama nation wanted any Burnt Orange competetion because the results would be aterrible wake up call for delusional Tide fans who are basking in the twilight of their less than stellar season. The Tide will probaby beat Utah but I'll be pulling for the Utes and their QB is from Texas.
BTW I'll also be pulling for Fla because everybody knows OU Sux- LOL Hookem-Horns- America's team
"we know we are the best in the country and can whup anybody- especially Bama,USC or Fla"
Riiiight. I guess you haven't heard of a little team called Texas Tech. Yeah, maybe if you would have beaten them you wouldn't be bitter about being left out and we would get to see the FL-TX matchup you wanted. Trust me - you better be glad ya'll are playing tOSU instead. 12-1 will look better than 11-2....
Yes I've heard of Texas Tech, we play them every year
07 OU over Texas Texas over Texas Tech
Texas Tech over OU
08 Texas over OU Texas Tech over Texas
OU over Texas Tech
Texas has won 3 outa last 4 OU
3 outa last 4 TTech
Hookem-Horns
Merry Christmas
Whats purty funny is that the Horns scheduled back to back against Arkansas one of the strongest teams from the toughest conference according to BC and after beating the MNC champs they were emberassed by Missu #6 B-12 team fired their coach and got beat down by the Longhorns 52-10.
They chickened out on next years game and scheduled Texas A&M #11 team in the B-12 who got whuped by BU.
Both Texas A&M & Arkansas used to be real tough opponents and this season those teams did not help the Horns SOS. The Rice Owls ended up going 9-3 with losses to Tulsa,Texas and Vandy all winning bowl bound programs.
Looks like next year the Horns get Wyoming, Rice and UCF, but I think we got Home & home coming up with Ole Miss & UCLA- well at least it aint Tenn Chatt LOL
Adios Tomcat
Hookem Horns
Just enjoying it while I can say it... :)
He was known as being one of the greatest QB's of his time having lead TCU to a 29-7-3 record, including victories in both Cotton & Sugar Bowls.
As Washington Redskin, #33 (the only Redskins' # currently retired) was a 3-way player. As QB he led the Redskins to 4 divisional titles & 2 NFL titles. He threw 187 career TD's (Redskins' team record) against only 31 career INT's. He also holds the Redskins' team record for highest single season completion percentage (70.3).
As a DB/S/LB, he was the only NFL player to have passed for 4 TD's & intercepted 4 TD's in the same game. As a punter on special teams, his 1940 season average of 51.4 yds/punt remains an NFL record.
As a human being, he was said to have been much more than just a successful football player. He was a successful rancher; the hard-working, hands-on kind, as opposed to those who stood and watched as others did his work for him. And apparently, he was a good father. He was the last surviving member of the 1963 inaugural class of the Pro-Football Hall of Fame. He will be missed.
Sammy Baugh
A good article on Sammy with a good YouTube video.
http://www.examiner.com/x-450-Washington-Redski...
and there are more, good players in the SE, than anywhere else.
there is such a high concentration of talent, that the SEC could possibly be the best conference at the top, while the ACC is the best top-to-bottom.
both conferences thrive off of the SE talent basin.
Here are the Top 3 states with the most NFL players:
California: 198
Texas: 173
Florida: 169
Conference strength, like being crowned the National Champ, is an opinion in CFB...
Go Rebs!
South Carolina @ Ole Miss 31-24 (the week after beating Florida)
South Carolina @ Clemson 14-31
A close loss to Alabama is the only thing on that schedule that I see warranting any sort of idea that you would "dominate just about every team (you) lost to".
SC > Ole Miss
Ole Miss > Florida
Florida > SC
We can do that chain thing all day.
SC isn't better than Clemson, so that proves nothing. Let me help you here:
Florida > FSU
FSU > Clemson
That logic makes sense. Yours doesn't at all.
A > B
B > C
C > A
Regardless of anything else, the first is true. A > B.
Clemson is 5 spots higher in the Sagarin. Take it up with him.
It's okay, we'll know soon enough when we play you guys ;)
Oreg>Oreg ST>USC>UCLA> Tenn> Vandy>Ole Miss>Fla>Bama>Ark>Tulsa>Rice>Houston>Tulsa>Rice>S Miss>Troy
Texas Tech>Ole Miss
There that settles it.