DISQUS

TigerEducated · 9 months ago

Alabama had "major violations" occur in the NCAA's terms (their words, not mine), which began occurring back in 2005...

They were still on probation in 2005 for "major violations"...

Alabama could very well be looking at the Death Penalty in Football, folks...

Kevin, do you guys really think that hurts a heckuva a lot? 6 ships ain't dat bad...

The win total thing does suck, though Paterno beat up on Powder Puff Girl's teams up there for years before becoming a bum in the Big 10(11)...We know Bowden's miles beyond what Weekend At Bernie's: State College has done up in Zoloft Valley...

Kevin @ Fanblogs · 9 months ago

If you look at where the 61 athletes in question are believed to be involved, the biggest "loss" may be vacating the national championship in track & field. That was a huge feather in the university's cap - one that FSU was very proud to promote.

The most confusing question in my mind is what is the end-game for the NCAA. It certainly APPEARS that FSU reported everything they knew immediately and took strong actions to correct the problem (massive firings, scholarship reductions, significant suspensions). There are going to be a lot of people who argue that FSU might have gotten off lighter (or without any penalties) if they hadn't reported the infraction at all. While I don't believe that, I think some schools might look at the vacating wins and really question the benefit of self-reporting.

The scholarships hurt - without question - and the NCAA said they weighed letting FSU keep the wins but FURTHER reducing scholarships. I think this is the right balance. If you're a glass half-full Nole... this is one more scholarship reduction than we had anticipated, which is pretty good.

TampaGator · 9 months ago

TE:

The death penalty has essentially been administered to the "death penalty", since the BYU fiasco, so 'bama ain't look'n at no death penalty.

Besides, I don't know what your source is, but the story I read characterized the violations as minor. So, until I hear differently, I'm inclined to believe that the NCAA will go light on 'Bama.


GO GATORS!!

TampaGator · 9 months ago

Doh!

...make that SMU...

(my apologies to the cougs...).

GO GATORS!!

WarEagleFan · 9 months ago

There was one Major Violation" Not Monitoring" and that happened while they were still on probation. Can you say REPEAT OFFENDER. Well if they do get the Death Penalty then at least BC will have an excuse for the next few years.

Kevin @ Fanblogs · 9 months ago

Whom are you referring to?

WarEagleFan · 9 months ago

I was referring to Alabama

Regan · 9 months ago

What's your beef with BAMA? :)

Bama_Babe · 9 months ago

The Death Penalty was mentioned by a few people, particularly those who WISH more than they KNOW, not by the NCAA. The "major violations" of this matter and of matters past - even if claimed "repeat offender" - will not call for the DP.

Sorry bud, it ain't happening. This case has been blown way out of proportion from outsiders.

TigerEducated · 9 months ago

So why would the RED lean on the publisher to bury the story if it was way more than other folks think it is?

Your booster's reactions seem to be at cross points with your opinion...

Bama_Babe · 9 months ago

Various reasons, TE.

All I was saying was if you think Bama's gonna get the Death Penalty, keep dreaming. As for other major penalties, it's in question, but don't count on too much to go down.

We can discuss this further on your future thread titled "Bama being Buried.....I wish".

;)

Regan · 9 months ago

Alabama will never get the Death Penalty, even if the Death Penalty was still on the table. Love them or hate them, BAMA is one of those teams that has enough history and success on their side that they've become "one of those teams" that polarize people into the competitive spirit that make CFB great.

You have BAMA on your schedule, you look forward to getting your shot at them, just like Notre Dame.

Losing teams like that would hurt the sport, and the powers that be realize it.

If BAMA were to vanish, TENN and AUB would have to have to attempt to hate each other as much as the hate the Tide. :)

oldenglish · 9 months ago

According to the NCAA Committee on Infractions' chairman, "the committee nearly gave Alabama the "death penalty" — the elimination of the football program" in 2002, when Alabama lost 21 scholarships and was hit with a two-year postseason ban.

"Thomas Yeager said the committee nearly gave Alabama the "death penalty" — the elimination of the football program. 'They were staring down the barrel of the gun,' Yeager said."

This is Alabama's 4th strike in 13 years. It could get dicey.

http://media.www.dailygamecock.com/media/storag...

WarEagleFan · 9 months ago

They wanted to wait until AFTER NSD so that it didn't hurt them in recruiting. Oh Nick Satan is about to get buried by the back lash on this.

Bama_Babe · 9 months ago

You and TE keep wishing...

This case involves more athletes than just the 5 football players. It is the University itself that may have messed up in the process - but don't forget, Alabama turned themselves in. So there was no trying to cover the whole incident up.
And this has nothing to do with Saban, besides how he rightly punished the 5 football players in the 2007 season. Like I said, keep hoping and wishing. And you might want to start praying about your own football season..

WarEagleFan · 9 months ago

And this has nothing to do with Saban.... How can you make that statement when it happened while he was the HC. Now it may be that this has a Bigger impact on Mal Moore but it still happened on Sabans watch and I would bet you money that he was one of the ones wanting to keep it underwraps until AFTER NSD. That's why this has everything to do with Saban.
And I don't think (IMHO) that Alabama will get off with a slap on the wrist considering their recent history with the NCAA.
And your right about this involving more than just FB players that's why Alabama Athletics as a whole may be in for big hit from the NCAA....

BamaBorn · 9 months ago

Just can't stop wishing and hoping can you TE?

:-)

Death penalty would be a good way to insure that LSU doesn't lose to Alabama again.

gatorhippy · 9 months ago

The win total thing does suck, though Paterno beat up on Powder Puff Girl's teams up there for years before becoming a bum in the Big 10(11)...We know Bowden's miles beyond what Weekend At Bernie's: State College has done up in Zoloft Valley...

And in the meantime Bobby counts wins from Samford and the tough "competition' at that level?

At least Joe got all his coaching wins at a D-1 school...

Regan · 9 months ago

Strangely enough, it's the NCAA that counts the Samford wins. I really don't understand why, but those wins have enabled Bowden and Paterno to have this intriguing little competition, which is reason enough for me. :-)

Clemson_Joe · 9 months ago

Well I don't know about 1959 - 1965 or whatever, but I know that the little teams in the South like Samford could beat a good bit of the lower level D1-A teams in the North. If it was the same back then, I have no problem with counting those wins.

gatorhippy · 9 months ago

Nor do I...

Just as long as Joe gets to count his patsy wins as well...

Clemson_Joe · 9 months ago

I really don't have a problem counting either of their wins. To take a team out on a field and win as many games as they have on any level is downright impressive. They both deserve immense amounts of credit for it in my mind.

Clemson_Joe · 9 months ago

Fantastic avatar by the way. I'm going to see him in Myrtle Beach on Sunday.

gatorhippy · 9 months ago

Yes, I know they do...

That's my point...

If Bobby gets to credibly count those then you would have to count Joe's accordingly as well...

Kevin @ Fanblogs · 8 months ago

I love a good non-issue. Bowden's Howard wins are counted because the NCAA -- for more than 30 years -- has used the same policy on all-time wins. It isn't a special nudge for Bowden or against Paterno.

Jim Wright, NCAA director of statistics, says a coach needs at least a five-year career to make an NCAA "active" victories list and 10 years to make an all-time list.

"Once he hits that, all previous games he coached are counted, provided they came against four-year schools," Wright says.

As Wright points out, the criteria are not specific to the Bowden-Paterno issue, nor to just football.

"It's a long-term policy," Wright says. "I've been (with the NCAA) for 30 years, and it was in place before I started. ... What we're trying to represent here is a coach's career. Once you've surpassed the minimums, we don't presume to go in and edit specific games.

"When we get e-mails about it, the point I make is there's a constant changing with teams moving from one division to another, like the Ivy League, which used to be prominent then switched and is now I-AA. With the wild fluctuation from I-A to I-AA and other teams, like Florida Atlantic and Florida International, going the other way, it would be very hard to draw some distinction."

gatorhippy · 8 months ago

Right...

And your point, Kev?

Kevin @ Fanblogs · 8 months ago

The point is simple - every win recognized by the NCAA is counted... for both... period. It's a non-issue.

gatorhippy · 8 months ago

So tell it to the Tiger...

I don't have a problem with either...

U.of S.C.1978 · 9 months ago

They have to change the record books and only suffer one scholly loss more than they have already imposed on themselves. Not too bad, considering.

OU_Ron · 9 months ago

It still sucks for the athletes that didn't do anything wrong, guess there's not any other way....

Zac · 9 months ago

I agree with you, Ron, whole heartedly. The bad apple syndrome may be appropriate to pull on grade school kids, but this is college and the NCAA is supposed to be composed of mature adults; men of wisdom. Using the "bad apple" argument smacks of nothing but sand-box logic. They should be as ashamed of themselves as those involved with what got FSU where it is now.

I've said it before; here it goes again. An investigation should, in theory, root out those involved: athletes, coaches, staff, etc. Fire the coaches and staff involved; loose the athletes of their scholarship + one year of eligibility and make them transfer to another school, preferably out of the same conference. Let the rest of the team be as it is, having Earned what it has earned, and benefit as it would...or would not...without those who did wrong any longer involved. Arguments for or against...anyone?

Regan · 9 months ago

I also agree that it isn't fair that many kids are getting penalized for things they didn't do, which is why I am against SCAL being hammered for the Reggie Bush fiasco, even though I have...strong feelings...that someone needs to lose an arm and leg for that.

In principle, I'm with ya on your idea, but my guess is that the 'powers that be' have the argument that the Team stands together, in triumph, defeat, glory, or scandal...

...At least that's what I try to think of when it comes to a kid with big dreams getting penalized because of what a jerk he never met did to cheat the system...

It isn't much consolation, but...

4cornerz · 9 months ago

Maybe the Big East can raid the ACC for teams now. This really hurts the ACC now. Look out for USF now, b/c they will become a power house team in FL now. Luv ya FSU, Keep up the bad work. One more Thing Go Joe Pa

Kevin @ Fanblogs · 9 months ago

I think it's a big reach between FSU going on probation that the Big East raiding the ACC, but I've been wrong before.

Zac · 9 months ago

Kevin, in how many languages can you say "wishful thinking"? Where the ACC & the Big East are concerned, what's done is done. Time to move on. As for FSU's current situation, this too will pass.

War_Eagle_Atlanta · 9 months ago

When are we going to find out how many football games and schollies are involved?

Kevin @ Fanblogs · 9 months ago

During the press conference, FSU said they would use the NCAA provided formula for reviewing the games and would have the information sometime within the next 90 days for the games.

The schollies are resolved.

Kevin @ Fanblogs · 9 months ago

It certinaly didn't take FSU long to respond. The Seminoles will continue their self-imposed penalties and will implement all the NCAA recommendations, except the vacated wins - which will be appealed.

"We believe that the NCAA confirmed that our investigative efforts and our self-imposed penalties were appropriate," said Florida State President T.K. Wetherell. "We already began implementing our self-imposed penalties. And we will begin implementing all but one of the NCAA’s additional sanctions."

"We just don't understand the sanction to vacate all wins in athletics contests in which ineligible student-athletes competed because we did not allow anyone who we knew was ineligible to compete. Our position throughout the inquiry was that as soon as we knew of a problem, they didn't play."

...

"Our independent investigation concluded that our coaches did not know about the academic misconduct and never knowingly played any ineligible student-athlete," Spetman said. "The NCAA’s report does not dispute that conclusion. Some of our student-athletes engaged in academic misconduct—and we will suffer the consequences but I believe vacating wins is just wrong."

TampaGator · 9 months ago

Kev:

Even though FSU is our hated arch-rival, I hate to see this stuff--I don't wish this on our worst enemy---quite literally. My condolences to FSU.


GO GATORS!!

Kevin @ Fanblogs · 9 months ago

You do the crime, you have to do the time. I don't like the vacated wins and I hope they get them back on appeal, but I think the probation and scholarship losses are warranted.

TampaGator · 9 months ago

I'll extend my condolences, and refrain from judging, but I'm not quite so moved by FSU's fate as to argue against you here. I'll just defer to your assessment, leave it at that.


GO GATORS!!

1Tomcat · 9 months ago

Kev sorry to hear the news and lets face it some on-line courses are really kind of a joke anyway- open book tests, you could say- music class. Seems like some pretty stiff pentalies for an oversight by some on the faculty of the university.
Looks like FSU tried to do the right thing and still got bent over with no vasoline.This kinda reminds me of the guy that shot the whooping crane while goose hunting, he should of buried that dang thing and not told anyone, instead he reported it and got heavy fines-thousands and his hunting license revoked forever. Pretty stiff penalties for a guy who mistakingly shot the wrong bird out of the sky on a foggy morning.

Zac · 9 months ago

Kevin, I don't disagree that certain sanctions may be warranted, but I will disagree with those that are used; i.e. probation (What good will that do?) and scholarship reductions (There are kids out there who want to play at FL St, who are willing to toe the line.).

Here's how we do it in the Nuclear Industry. Stop me, if this makes too much sense.

A violation, impropriety, or major system/condition adverse to quality is uncovered. The USNRC brings in an inspection team who does a thorough investigation. They look at the condition. They look at condition reports, procedures, work orders, etc. They look at what's been done to date, including the licensee's determination of the probable root cause. The USNRC determines a probable root cause. Then, they determine the gaps (if any) between their assessment of the condition and its causes vs. that of the licensee. They, give the licensee an opportunity to develop a plan (provided one hasn't been developed already). They consider the proposed plan and proposed corrective actions. There's a certain amount of deliberation, commenting, recommendations, etc, which eventually evolves into a final plan document, complete with corrective actions. The USNRC, having seen to their comments and recommendations incorporated into this document, does a final review, and generally accepts. Now, it's up to the licensee to follow their plan, because the USNRC will show up within the next 6-18 months to determine 1) Did the licensee correctly identify the problem?, 2) Did the licensee fix the problem?, & 3) Were the corrective actions effective?

Only when violations (if any) are severe enough, are fines levied, shutdowns required, extended outages, etc. Cheating on exams is certainly beneath decent people, but putting off repairs to a system designed for safe shut-down of a nuclear reactor, all in the name of saving a few bucks, is far worse, in my opinion. Not to mention, in FSU's case, the whole team & school gets punished, and that's just not right or ethical, again, in my opinion.

So, my question is, why can the NCAA adopt a similar strategy as that of the USNRC. In my opinion, the NCAA should benchmark the USNRC's way of doing business, and perhaps learn from it. Just a thought.

Regan · 9 months ago

Somewhere out there...Reggie Bush is cackling....

Kevin @ Fanblogs · 9 months ago

For clarification - the NCAA ruled that Florida State must VACATE wins, not forfeit games. The difference is substantial. Under the NCAA ruling, the only team whose record is impacted is Florida State, not the opponents.

For example, if FSU does not win on appeal and finds that ineligible players played in the 2007 win over Virginia, then FSU would remove that "W" from the win column. Virginia would still have an "L" for that game. If the ruling had been a "forfeit", then FSU would have an "L" for that game and Virginia would have a "W".

Clemson_Joe · 9 months ago

What real effect does changing an L from a past year's game to a W really have?

It seems to me that it's all just trivial.

Kevin @ Fanblogs · 9 months ago

No one will change an L to a W. That's my point.

The only team who would change their past results is FSU, with affected W's being changed to L's.

Clemson_Joe · 9 months ago

Right, but in the case of forfeiting, what would that change for the teams that lost?

Kevin @ Fanblogs · 9 months ago

Since the ruling is VACATED wins, there is no forfeit. Teams that lost to FSU will still be on record as having lost to FSU. No team - other than FSU - will have a change to past results.

Clemson_Joe · 9 months ago

Ok I guess I need to be more concise here...

"...in the case of forfeiting, what would that change (be) for the teams that lost?"

I'm not talking about Florida State. I'm not talking about Virginia.

I'm talking hypothetically, because I really don't know what would happen in the case of a forfeiture, and I'm hoping that you do.

Here's the scenario:
Team A beat Team B in 2001.
Team B finished the season 5-6 in 2001.
Team A has to forfeit the wins in 2001.
Other than changing their record in the history books to 6-5, how does this actually affect Team B?

Regan · 9 months ago

CJ, changing an L to a W last year could have profoundly affected Clemson. Had CLEM lost to SCAR, they would not have ended up Bowl Eligible, having come up short one win.

And now, had that been the case, CLEM fans would have massive whining rights because we would be able to blame someone else for not making a Bowl Game because we would have been Bowl Eligible all along...just no one knew it.... :-)

And let's face it...we're Americans...whining is fun. :-)

Zac · 9 months ago

Yeah, but winning is funner..., especially when you beat the odds, the ref's, and the NCAA!

Ramblin' Gator · 9 months ago

What a mess. Once again, the NCAA is encouraging schools to cover up their blunders and discouraging self-policing of any kind. I certainly believe academic fraud is one of the worst things a school can do (talk about erasing your own legitimacy!), but the NCAA does not have the resources to police all the schools without the schools providing assistance (see USC/Bush for a fine example of this).

dwhitman32 · 9 months ago

Kevin, I read your blog all the time. I will admit prior to my comments that I am a lifelong FSU fan. I was shocked when I found out about the "vacating" wins thing. I did a little research and for all you conspiracy theorists out there, know this: the head of the committee (definition of committee: a flock of vultures) that handed down the verdict on FSU is Dennis Thomas, he is the chairman of the MEAC Conference. No bid deal except that the MEAC is the home to Florida A&M, which is of course is FSU's Tally neighbor. These two schools never liked each other and have a number of on the field (and probably hundreds off the field) incidents over the year.
I know it may be a stretch but again I understand doing the crime means doing the time and FSU deserves the scholarship drops and other penalties, but punishing players and coaches who had no clue that ineligible players were participating is pretty stupid.

Kevin @ Fanblogs · 9 months ago

There's no conspiracy here. I believe the NCAA has gone to far in light of the self-reporting, but I also get the impression that they want to make an example of FSU on the national stage.

FSU got themselves into this mess, so you can blame anyone else, IMHO.

oldenglish · 9 months ago

I don't remember the NCAA ever giving a school the choice of vacating wins or losing more scholarships. FSU got very preferential treatment here - the inmates running the asylum. I'd be curious to know what the number of forfeited scholarships would have been had FSU not made the decision to throw Bowden and his wins total under the bus.

However, by immediately announcing FSU didn't intend to abide by the vacation stipulation, FSU's Wetherell validated the opinion that many have had about FSU for some time - that FSU is, has been for some time, and apparently will continue to do whatever they have to to circumvent the rules.

Kevin @ Fanblogs · 9 months ago

I don't know how you got the impression that the NCAA gave FSU a choice re: vacating wins. That is absolutely false. The NCAA rep did say that the NCAA considered several additional sanctions (including further scholarship reductions) before deciding to force FSU to vacate wins.

Don't get me started on what TK is, but... like every single team at every level, FSU is entitled to appeal the ruling. FSU is accepting everything accept the vacate. SOME schools appeal the entire portion. Just sayin.

oldenglish · 9 months ago

Page 14, C, 3 of the NCAA report: "Had no vacation penalty been imposed, the scholarship limitations would have been more stringent"

My mistake, I thought I read somewhere that FSU was given the choice.

Here's another part of the ruling which I find hypocritical and with which I disagree. NCAA mandates that FSU vacate wins. "This includes regular season contests, postseason contests and any NCAA championship competition." But it does not include returning any monies the school made for participating in those postseason contests, "because bowl games are not NCAA-sanctioned events, money would not have to be returned for FSU's participation in the 2007 Music City Bowl." So even though FSU used ineligible players to qualify for the bowl, and the NCAA makes them vacate (or would have had they won) that win, it lets them keep the money they earned by being there illegally.

U.of S.C.1978 · 9 months ago

So you are saying it is all about money? Sounds like war to me.
The game, is getting too complicated.

Kevin @ Fanblogs · 9 months ago

FSU sat a ziliion players for that game once this scandal was uncovered, so no illegal participation can even be suggested. (Note: a zillion might not be the exact count, but it was a lot).

oldenglish · 9 months ago

It was something like 36 total who sat, some who were injured and most who had cheated. Now, if FSU used illegal players in winning games to get them invited to the Music City Bowl, I think a case could be made that they shouldn't have even been there. But typical of FSU's stonewalling of a legitimate investigation until push came to shove, they wouldn't identify which players were cheaters and which were hurt, thereby creating skepticism of the non-cheaters who were simply hurt. My neighbor's son was one of those who was injured, and I can tell you there was a tremendous amount of anger among the parents, and a sense of betrayal by the injured kids, that FSU threw them under the bus to protect (if only temporarily) their reputation. FSU beat UCLA in the Emerald Bowl following the 2006 season. I don't know if any of the kids in question played, but FSU has 90 days to identify who played in every game. I'd say the odds are 50/50 they refuse to do it.

oldenglish · 9 months ago

Of course it's about the money. Explain to me why it is, that of 37 football programs docked scholarships or practice time in the 2008 season, only two (Washington State and Kansas) were from BCS conferences? How come when it's an Eastern Washington or San Jose State or Florida Atlantic, the penalties are swift and severe? Yet when it's an FSU, a USC or any BCS team, the "investigation" takes two, three years or longer? You can bet that the ACC had as much stink of legal representation in this sham as did FSU. What did FSU lose here? Two scholarships a year in football is a joke, it's meaningless. Possibly 14 wins off their - and Bowden's - record? They've already announced they'll appeal, and more than likely - if history is any indicator - the NCAA will reverse that ruking and let them keep the wins. A couple trophies in the trophy case? Believe me, they're celebrating up in Tallahassee. I live in Florida and I have many friends whose kids go to FSU. The cheating has been common knowledge for 8-10 years. The only way to get renegade programs like FSU to clean up their act is to hit them hard where it hurts - in the pocketbook. For FSU, in this case, that would have meant no TV games for two years, and no postseason games for two years - in addition to an equal number of lost scholarships for ineligible players who played. And I'm using two years, because that's how many seasons the cheating went on - or at least that's the number FSU, the ACC and the NCAA agreed upon.

U.of S.C.1978 · 9 months ago

You say the only way to get a "renegade" program to clean up their act is to hit them in the pocketbook. And that the Ncaa did not do that in this case. Yet presumably, they have cleaned up their act. So the extra punishment was not necessary.

oldenglish · 9 months ago

Key word in your statement: "presumably". I don't doubt FSU's administration and football staff will be more diligent in policing what goes on with that bothersome first part of the term, "student/athlete". As I said before (I think), friends of mine who have had kids at FSU as students and as student/athletes have told me that cheating within the football program has been common knowledge for 8-10 years. Unfortunately, far too many "responsible adults" have been willing to look the other way. At FSU - as at many other football factories, winning football games is more important than providing a quality college education. When you ask, was "the extra punishment necessary", I would ask you....what punishment? Eighty-three scholarship players instead of eighty-five. Look down the football roster at your school and see how many players beyond the first 60-65 contribute. What punishment......vacated victories? First, FSU's "illustrious" president - who should have been forced to resign or fired long ago - has already said FSU has no intention of abiding by that ruling. Even if they did, so what? The games are over, the money is in the bank. FSU has a sordid history of violations over the past 15 years - all while Bowden has been running the program. This "punishment" by the NCAA was absolutely a slap on the wrist to FSU, and a slap in the face for all the programs who play by the rules, and all the programs who have been hit with far more severe sanctions for lesser crimes.

Kevin @ Fanblogs · 9 months ago

Your argument generally overlooks the fact that it was FSU that reported the infractions to the NCAA.

oldenglish · 9 months ago

For starters, so what? The NCAA was equally unimpressed with that hollow excuse when FSU used it. I hear from many people that the cheating went on unchecked for 8-10 years before one student/athlete developed a conscious. Secondly, look at the watered-down story FSU tried to peddle as "a complete and thorough investigation".

Kevin @ Fanblogs · 8 months ago

h

U.of S.C.1978 · 9 months ago

Here in the blogosphere, we are not really held accountable for our printed thoughts. I post a lot on other spots, and I have said some really stupid stuff over the years. I am probably more guilty than most, for typing crap that was not well thought out. That being said, I always do, stay away "hearsay" posting. I don't care if your neighbors cousins kid is best friends with someone who's daughter goes to school at FSU and she says, "...........". That is meaningless. It does not live up to any legal standard. More importantly, it"s not fair. Standards are set, to ensure fair dealing.
I resent your trashing of FSU. It is not fair.
I believe Mr. Bowden runs a good program, within the rules. I believe some student athletes, should be paid weekly. I believe HBC can be a tough job and sometimes one might think something is ok, and not know the full details.

FSU is complying with all Ncaa rules and regulations. If I am wrong, post it up, with proof.

oldenglish · 9 months ago

"I believe Mr. Bowden runs a good program, within the rules. FSU is complying with all Ncaa rules and regulations"

Now that's a brilliant statement coming on the heels of a two-year investigation of FSU by the NCAA, and three days after the NCAA imposed what some call major sanctions. I believe it was a slap on the wrist and a slap on the face to all schools who always play by the rules. Nonetheless, the NCAA did impose sanctions, and they don't usually do that to schools who are playing "within the rules" and "complying with all Ncaa rules and regulations".

Let me ask you, was Santa good to you last Christmas?

Or maybe you meant, "Bowden runs a good program, within the rules" and "FSU is complying with all Ncaa rules and regulations" SINCE FSU's massive cheating ring got busted. You're probably on to something there. Like most criminals who get sent to prison and "discover" God, Bowden - I don't doubt - is today playing "within the rules".

You see, there are two ways to cheat. One is to blatantly and overtly break the rules, which most coaches would never do because it would be too obvious. The second is to turn your back to illegal activity for years, because your main goal in life is to be known as the winningest coach in NCAA D-1 history, and to do that, you need to keep those athletes eligible for Saturday afternoons. Then, when someone gets busted, you plead early-onset Alzheimer.

Clemson_Joe · 9 months ago

Just to clarify, Bobby Bowden is 14 years older than the cut off for the designation of "early-onset Alzheimer's".

Honestly, can you really call anything "early" at 79 years old?

oldenglish · 9 months ago

Good point Clemson Joe. Let me ask you, are you happy to be rid of your Bowden? I know my friends with kids at FSU were ecstatic when Jeff Bowden was forced out at FSU. Daddy Bowden wasn't happy, but if not for the fact that Daddy used his influence to get Florida's nepotism laws changed, Jeff would have been lucky to have had a high school head-coaching job.

Clemson_Joe · 9 months ago

I am actually. I was a big proponent of getting rid of him. He was the coach during my time as a student, and I actually knew him fairly well. I used to see him virtually every day and talk to him pretty frequently. He was a fantastic person, but his time came and went as the man who was appropriate for the head coaching job at Clemson.

Coach Swinney has injected a new sense of energy and excitement into the team and the program that we honestly never had with Bowden. Too many Clemson fans remember the image of Tommy with his arms crossed, looking at the ground as he paced the sidelines while we were losing. It was so frustrating that it seemed like he had no passion for it. I am glad that we hired him because I think he did fantastic things for the program on the field and off. He ran a clean program and graduated most of his players, but as I said, he time came and went. I wish nothing but the best for him now, and honestly hope he doesn't return to football, so that he can just relax and live without the stress that comes with a head coaching job.

I have also been a fan of the 'Noles since my childhood, and I was happy to see Jeff go as well. I'm not even sure that Jeff would rank in the top 4 Bowdens in football. He was definitely gifted that position, and did nothing to deserve keeping it as long as he did.

As an alum of a school that could call FSU a rival to some extent, I've never heard anything bad said about Bobby Bowden. My impression is that he's always run a fairly clean program. I've also assumed in the last decade or so that he's taken a largely hands off approach to his football program. Heck, during the Clemson - FSU game a few years back, one of the 'Noles was sent off in the first half. At halftime, the reporter asked Bobby about it, and he asked her who the player was and it truly seemed as if he had no idea that the kid had been ejected. Maybe he did know more about the cheating than I think, but I've never gotten the impression that he, or any of his clan for that matter, run a dirty program. Although, I honestly know the least about Terry, so I can't say much about him.

oldenglish · 9 months ago

This was the 3rd major NCAA investigation that resulted in sanctions during Bowden's tenure at FSU. Everybody's favorite whipping-boy - the Miami Hurricanes - have had two in that time. The first, in 1981, resulted in a one-year post-season ban, and the loss of 10 scholarships. The second, the Pell Grant scandal in 1995, resulted in 31 lost scholarships and a three-year postseason ban.
The NCAA is grossly unfair and inconsistent in imposing sanctions. That's my main gripe. With regard to Bowden, at what point do you consider that quite possibly, three major investigations resulting in sanctions, absolutely speaks to his lack of leadership, in that he is notorious for failing to reign in renegade athletes? For example, during the 2007 season, he had two players who were arrested for assault and battery on a police officer during an early-morning bar fight. Bowden announced that one, Joe Surratt - who was out for the year after having had leg surgery - would be suspended for the year. The other - Bowden's star LB Geno Hayes - was suspended for 5 minutes 18 seconds - the first defensive series of the following game (had to keep up with JoePa, dadgummit). Bowden's cavalier attitude in disciplining thug athletes has absolutely contributed to perpetuating the out-of-control cloud that is the FSU football program.

Clemson_Joe · 9 months ago

"...in disciplining thug athletes"

It honestly seems like there isn't a different kind of athlete in the state of Florida, given the history with FSU, UF, and Miami players and their players seemingly having their own rooms reserved at the jails.

I know that will probably anger some people, but really, as an outsider looking in it seems like the only consistent news coming out of the Sunshine State is college athletes and their mishaps.

Clemson_Joe · 9 months ago

By the way, I take it you're a Miami fan. What are your thoughts on Shannon?

I agree with you that the NCAA is unfair. If you want to see a gross representation of the NCAA and their bias, just wait and see how they handle this new situation at Alabama. This one should be quite interesting.

oldenglish · 9 months ago

I'm a WV native and WVU and college football fan, and started following UM when I moved to Ft. Lauderdale back in the 1970's.

Shannon will need some time to become comfortable with the intricacies and responsibilities of being a head coach, which are far different than what he had to do as one of the best defensive coordinators in college football for years. He turned down more money to become Mack Brown's DC at Texas to take this job. He could leave tomorrow and find a job as a DC at most major programs. That said, I love Randy Shannon and think he's the right guy for UM. He's the direct opposite of a Bobby Bowden, whose philosophy seems to be that as long as he can bail you out of jail by kickoff, you can play for FSU. Shannon is a no-nonsense disciplinarian. Here's a little example. The year before Shannon took over, a couple UM players came home to find their house being burglarized, were shot at, and one of them returned fir with his own registered firearm. One of Shannon's first rules was no guns - period. If you want to play for UM, you cannot own a gun. As opposed to FSU's Preston Parker, who got caught with a gun and a bag of weed while already on probation for an earlier theft charge, and Bowden welcomed him back with open arms. Anyway, back to Shannon. His stated commitment is to give opportunities to young kids who make the commitment to study, earn their degree, and stay out of trouble. Otherwise, you don't play for Randy Shannon. When it comes to walking the walk, nobody compares to Randy Shannon. If you don't know his story, Shannon grew up in Miami's Liberty City, which is what sociologists and other refined thinkers call a challenging urban environment. Shannon was 3 when his father was murdered by one of his friends. Two of Shannon's brothers and a sister died, from cocaine and AIDS. By age 16, Shannon was a father. He could easily have been on a glide path to a prison or a cemetery. Instead, because of football, he went to the University of Miami and became the first member of his family to earn a college degree. When he looks an inner-city kid in the eye and tells him that if he keeps his nose clean and goes to class, he too can make something of his life, not only does he mean it, he knows it's true. He can relate to these kids, he's honest and he's a decent human being. He passes over a lot of skilled players because they just aren't going to be able to adhere to his rules. But I believe that by his 4th year, the 2010-11 season, he'll have UM back in the NC hunt with the quality players and quality individuals he's attracting to UM.

As for your comment in another post referencing jail cells reserved for UM, FSU and Florida players, it's both inaccurate and unfair to UM. I would encourage you to do some research on the number of problems UM has had over the past 10 years in comparison to FSU, Florida, Alabama, Georgia, Ohio State, etc. I can assure you UM's are minimal - regardless of the unfair stereotype that ESPN, Sports Illustrated, and unaware football fans of other schools love to perpetuate.

Clemson_Joe · 9 months ago

UM's missteps might well be minimal compared to FSU, UF, Alabama, UGA, and OSU in the last decade. That's all relative. Compared to most of the other schools in the country, the picture isn't quite so pretty. If Miami hadn't had issues in the first place, it would have never developed the reputation that it has, regardless of who chooses to perpetuate it.

Randy Shannon seems to be doing good things for the University of Miami, and that's great for both the school and the ACC. The reputation comes from actual incidents that are shameful for the U of M and it will take time to erase those. It has just as much to do with U of M's actions on the field, as it does off. Beyond the arrests of the past, the FIU incident coupled with little cheap shots that used to be so easy to find during a 'Canes game still remain fresh in peoples' minds as they weren't so long ago. Shannon seems to be on the right track but it's certainly going to take some time, and we'll see how "quality" the character of his players is, and how well that holds up. In short, the proof will be in the pudding, and it won't matter which media outlets or fan bases try to attack them because it won't be there to substantiate the claims. Best of luck to him though, I truly hope he has success both in winning games and cleaning up the image of the 'Canes program.

By the way, calling a sociologist a "refined thinker" is like calling a janitor a "sanitation engineer".

oldenglish · 9 months ago

Miami was an out-of-control, renegade program under Jimmy Johnson and Dennis Erickson from 1984-1994. They also happened to have been the most dominat team of that era, and one of the most dominant of all time. Man, were they fun to watch and they produced a ton of outstanding football players.

But they got busted and were punished severely for their misdeeds. Beginning with Butch Davis in 1995, and continuing with Larry Coker and now Randy Shannon - and with a mandate from the university's administration - UM committed to changing the kind of athlete they recruit, as well as the culture and reputation of the football program. And they have been extremely successful.

In response to, "I truly hope he has success in cleaning up the image of the 'Canes program", he won't. Unfortunately, there will always exist enough narrow-minded, small-minded individuals - usually die-hard fans of rival teams - who will do their best to perpetuate the image of UM as the one they created for themselves under Johnson and Erickson. Fully 15 years later, those people will choose to ignore what's going on at UM today, and unfairly denigrate today's team - and all future UM teams - as being responsible for and part and parcel of the image of the renegade teams of 20 years ago, when most of these kids weren't even born. It's patently unfair, but that's human nature, and that's why some will always choose to refer to UM as "thug U".

Last point, FIU. If you ever played football or any organized sport, and when you saw your teammate being attacked and pummeled by a couple opposing players, and could just turn and walk away, well, I'll just say I never would have either. That's exactly what happened in the FIU fiasco. If anybody watched or watches a replay of that incident - with a fair and open-mind - you'd know that the brawl was initiated when FIU players bodyslammed, punched and kicked UM's holder on an extra-point. Did some UM players badly overreact? Yes. I won't go on, because some will always have their own image of all UM players from now until the end of time. I'll just say this. Put UM players in Notre Dame uniforms that day, and FIU players in UM uniforms. Then, the discusion would have been - and still be - how UM players instigated a brawl by slamming Notre Dame's holder after an extra-point.

Clemson_Joe · 8 months ago

I fully agree with your assessment of the FIU brawl. I knew the back story already. It doesn't change the impression that people have. Unfair as it may be, that is tough to overcome.

We deal with the same thing. A few years back we had a brawl in our annual rivalry game with South Carolina, and the back story to that was never published. The cause was never stated in public. Both schools apologized, instituted self punishment, and have moved on.

That fight has enabled us to be able to claim a unique distinction however. Clemson has now sent off 2 famous, hall of fame caliber coaches with a fight: Woody Hayes and Lou Holtz.

Oh, and just because I enjoy watching it so much, here's Woody Hayes and his famous right hook.

TampaGator · 8 months ago

Olde:

You're discounting a few factors, like the primary common denominator between the U and FIU being MIAMI....(as in the City of Miami--that's where the "thug" part comes from);

Aggravated by such high profile ambassadors like Michael Irvin, Ray Lewis, Kelen "the Chosen one" Winslow, Jr., Jeremy "locker-room cancer" Shockey, and Warren Sapp...

Then there's the bandana wearin' street urchin fans they attract throughout the fruited plane....

These are the things that keep the image alive; not just unfounded/antiquated notions held by frustrated anti-canes.

....but please don't let that get in the way of your lambasting of Bobby Bowden--I'm rather enjoying it!


GO GATORS!!

oldenglish · 8 months ago

Miami had the 9th-highest violent crime rate in the U.S. in 2007. Of the cities ahead of Miami, I wonder why we never hear of Georgia Tech, Vanderbilt, St. Louis University, University of Minnesota, Memphis University, University of Detroit Mercy, Johns Hopkins or Cal-Berkeley labeled "Thug U"?

I was in Gainesville just yesterday on business. Do you mean those several people I saw wearing bandanas were secretly Miami Hurricane subversives disguised as UF students?

Irvin and Lewis, definitely bad actors. Winslow was nothing more than a loudmouth at UM, but he backed it up on the field. Shockey is another loudmouth, but he never caused problems at UM. Sapp failed a few drug tests that were covered up. But hey, every school has someone like that - such as UF's Ronnie "AK-47" Wilson. Am I right?

But as far as actual problem players over the past 15 years - and especially the past (how long has Meyer been at UF?) 5 years, UM is the Vienna Boys' Choir compared to FSU and UF. Does that mean Meyer and UF run a thug program? Maybe not, but would you have traded the way Meyer runs his program, and the kinds of kids he recruits for your two titles?

TampaGator · 8 months ago

"...would you have traded the way Meyer runs his program, and the kinds of kids he recruits for your two titles?..."

LMAO!

Would you trade the kinda' kids' Miami recruited over a 20+ year span for Miami's FIVE NC's?

Get off your pulpit you sanctimonious choirboy.

You said it yourself--Miami's reputation under JJ, et.al was...

...WELL EARNED.

As for those few boys in G'ville you saw yesterday....you're still short a few hundred thousand, loitering at gas stations and ghettos ALL ACCROSS these United States, wearn' Gator gear, to approach the thuggish assocation championed by...

...THE (THUG) U.

Final point: who the hell is Ronnie Wilson, compared to such household names as RAY LEWIS, MICHAEL IRVIN, JEREMY SHOCKEY, AND WARREN SAPP?

Our (UF's) household names:

STEVE SPURRIER
JACK YOUNGBLOOD
CRIS COLLINSWORTH
WILBUR MARSHALL
EMMITT SMITH
DANNY WUERFEL
TIM TEBOW


GO GATORS!!

oldenglish · 8 months ago

You mentioned a couple canes from the 80's, 90's and early 2000's. Let's look at the Florida Gators' Ronnie "AK-47" Wilson in 2007 and 08. "AK-47" was suspended from the Gators football team in 2007 for getting in a fight in the parking lot of an after-hours club, leaving the scene, and returning with his AK-47 and shooting up the place, Meyer reinstated him in 2008, and on the day he was to register for classes, he got pulled over in his car because police said there was so much smoke inside the car, they couldn't see a driver. Yes, he was smoking pot. But Bill Cervone, illustrious Alachua D.A. (and U.F. grad) dropped the charges. He said - now get this - that even though AK-47 was alone in the car, there wasn't proof that the pot was his. Cervone also "overlooked" the fact that AK-47 was still on probation from his shooting rampage, and should have gone directly to jail. (By the way, did you know nine of Meyer's players were arrested between Jan. 8 2007 and Oct. 2008?)

So Meyer took AK-47 back for the 08-09 season, and in Oct. 2008, Wilson was arrested once again for assaulting - not one, not two, but THREE people (including one woman) in a bar fight.

So I take by your previous non-answer, that you appreciate Urban and his thugs all day long, as long as they can produce championships?

Kevin @ Fanblogs · 8 months ago

I'm gonna ask you to PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF PUPPIES stick to the topic at hand in the OP. I don't know how you got so far afield as to sully the three most notable football programs in the state of Florida... but that is not in line with the OP.

If you have more to contribute about the original post... have at it.

Zac · 8 months ago

All do respect; I swear it. And, while I know this is off topic, I just had to ask.

Did you really say "...for the love of puppies..."?

While you're contemplating that, how about it? Do you think in this regard the NCAA should be more like the USNRC as to how they handle violations? (Remember; the USNRC enforces 10CFR20 & 10CFR50, among others. With which Codes of Federal Regulations is the NCAA involved?)

TampaGator · 8 months ago

Old-E:

I mentioned Iconic U of M
A-L-U-M-N-I! ("household names")...

You mentioned a bit player...
...who was EXPELLED.

You should see someone about that anger issue...


GO GATORS!!

oldenglish · 8 months ago

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/128766-a-ful...

If you are actually an alumnus of UF, you should be concerned that your school's football program has far and away, more thugs than any college in America , and that you have a coach who fosters that type of individual.

OU_Ron · 8 months ago

JMO OldE, you're skating on thin Ice ;-)

oldenglish · 8 months ago

For what?

Zac · 8 months ago

Yeah, was it something he said?

TampaGator · 8 months ago

Olde:

This may come as a surpirse, but not only am I a UF alumnus, but...

...my BROTHER is a UM alumnus as well (that's why I'm so well versed in picking them apart--sibling rivalry!)--so as much as I may berate "da U", I actually happen to like the 'canes...

Now, to your point: Yes, as an alum, I am concerened by these trends which basically began under Zook. A big part of letting Zook go and going after Meyer, was the former's lack of control, versus the latter's reputation for discipline and keeping his kids in order. It has been an unpleasant surprise to hear our players continuing to get into trouble, but no matter how you slice it, you have to take each kid and each case indivudually. There have been a few incidents where Meyer gave 'em a 2nd chance where I didn't think one was warranted (e.g. R.Wilson); a few panned out well (Tony Joiner, CI); a few have not (R.Wilson, J.Hornsby).

So yeah, UF has a problem; but I think Meyer is handling it fairly well, if not as well as desired...and ultimately, you have to defer to the Coach--and when a Coach brings a couple of SEC rings, NC's, and a H'man trophy---well, that builds up the Coach's good-will with the Alumni and boosters, and increases his margin of error.

That's life; you reap what you sow, and all harvests will have their weeds, and the like. The one's that poison the take though, are the one that WERE NOT WEEDED OUT before the harvest, but allowed to remain with it--and in some cases, over power the very nature of the harvest itself...

....which brings us full circle to your gripe about the U's image, and why I mention the "iconic" figures associated with each program: fortunately for UF, many of our "thugs" have been lost in the light of the good-will built up by the likes of Steve Spurrier, Danny Wuerffel, Emmitt Smith, and Tim Tebow--unfortunately for Miami, many of their character guys have been lost in the shadows cast by the likes of Ray Lewis, Michael Irvin and J. Shockey.

In other words, it's not necessarily the frequency, nor even the gravity of offenses which occur within a program--nor the quality or quantity of merits--but the prominance of the characters responsible for either, which carries the greater weight in defining the "image" of a program.

Se la vie.


GO GATORS!!

oldenglish · 8 months ago

I'm going to assume that Kevin was not singling me out when he requested we stay. "in line with the OP". I could be wrong, but I'd at least like to think he expects everybody to follow his rules, and that he doesn't play favorites. So until such time as the OP is about which current college football team in Florida is the runaway winner in numbers of players arrested, that is the time your Florida Gators can legitimately enter into the discussion.

Kevin @ Fanblogs 17 hours ago 1 point

I'm gonna ask you to PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF PUPPIES stick to the topic at hand in the OP. I don't know how you got so far afield as to sully the three most notable football programs in the state of Florida... but that is not in line with the OP.

If you have more to contribute about the original post... have at it

1Tomcat · 8 months ago

There is no excuse for the UM vs FIU brawl- Miami showed their true colors- Thugs pure and simple-appalling behavior- lets put a boot party on -right-lets whup somebody's -ss- awful and disgusting- you proud of that sh-t and try to justify it- terrible display of sportsmanship-out of control bunch of future convicts IMO
Go try to sell that B/S somewhere else dude-cause I ain't buying it- bunch of dang thugs= If you don't like it then you probably ought to support some other team that has their own stadium and where fans that attend games can do so without fear from gangs and drivebuys for which the canes are known.

Kevin @ Fanblogs · 9 months ago

You wanna go ahead and provide a news link that supports your claim that Bowden had laws changed?

oldenglish · 9 months ago

First, I'll post something I read in an archive of fanblogs.com from Nov, 2006. It's curious why the moderator - guy identified as Kevin Donahue - didn't challenge it's validity back then.

Jon said:
posted on November 13, 2006 9:00 PM — 69.246.161.119 — link — abuse?

"Just remember.. The old president told Bowden that is was a bad idea. He told him it violated nepotism laws...What did he get for it? Bowden, the AD and the board of trustees hatred..and old bow-tie eventually retired because of it..They rigged up the org chart to make retardo report to Mickey Andrews (something that is unheard of)..."

Unheard of, unless one is an FSU homer and sees nothing fishy with an offensive coordinator (and head coach's son) reporting to the defensive coordinator. How about it Kev, how many other schools can you name that follow that practice?

In comes Wetherall.. Former FSU player.. Supports nepotism..

"His father sidestepped the university's nepotism rule to promote him (Jeff Bowden) from receivers coach to replace Mark Richt in 2001. As an offensive coordinator, Jeff was a fine receivers coach. If he was any more in over his head, he would have coached in scuba gear."

http://www.denverpost.com/colleges/ci_10541587

I stand corrected, he didn't even bother to try and change the law. He just found a way to get around it and manipulate it, which is typical of Bowden and FSU.

Regan · 9 months ago

The overwhelming majority of CLEM fans were relieved when TB left and Swinney took over.

I am infamous for my unwillingness to call for a coach's head while the season is ongoing, if the call has to be made, I wait until it is over. Otherwise, I always support the coach and team no matter what...it's just the way I roll.

After all was said and done, I really liked TB. He brought CLEM back to the cusp of greatness, and kept them there. But in the end, it just wasn't going to happen, and deep down, even I knew that new blood was needed. I just didn't say it until he was gone. Same with Coker a few years back...

A huge majority of CLEM fans have really liked Swinney for many years now. He's energetic, and has brought a momentum shift to the Tigers so great that it kept CJ Spiller in school when he would have probably made the 1st round.

oldenglish · 9 months ago

I agree with you, calling for the coach's head mid-season is not cool. If you support the team, and if you ever played competitive sports, you know that dumping a coach mid-stream is extremely chaotic for a team full of 19-22 year old kids. I was surprised Bowden bailed on Clemson.

U.of S.C.1978 · 9 months ago

"I believe it was a slap on the wrist and a slap on the face to all schools who always play by the rules."

I asked you for proof, not opinion.

"was Santa good to you last Christmas?"

No. But my wife was.

oldenglish · 9 months ago

"I asked you for proof"

http://www.nbc-2.com/NewsLinks/NCAA%20Ruling.pdf

U.of S.C.1978 · 9 months ago

They're already paying an appropriate penalty for that. What else ya got?

oldenglish · 9 months ago

What else do you need explained in a fashion that you can understand? I'll be happy to accommodate you. After all, you're the one who made the incredibly absurd statement:

"I believe Mr. Bowden runs a good program, within the rules. FSU is complying with all Ncaa rules and regulations"

Regan · 9 months ago

TBH, I believe that CFB teams have come a long, long way from the days of SMU 1985, when outright cheating was the name of the game. I don't consider myself to be well-knowledged on what happened, but the stories I have heard were beyond comical...

Things like these happen, and all too often they don't result due to the university conspiring to break the rules. Most often, it's boosters who go too far, etc. Penalties result from the respective parties being responsible for the conduct of it's program, not as a result of outright cheating.

It just sucks for everyone when these things happen. Gar...

Kevin @ Fanblogs · 9 months ago

I'm surprised that anyone would even suggest that Bowden would know it was going on. There's a decent FSU contingent that believes St Bobby doesn't even know what's for lunch, let alone this level of oversight. It reminds me of the SNL skit with President Reagan and the Girl Scout in the Oval Office.

1Tomcat · 9 months ago

Kev I think coach Bobby musta peed in oldenglish's cornflakes or something?
Call it jealousy, hatred or whatever, because we all know about the place known as Thug U- they must be clean like the driven snow-ya right. Now a very minor infraction surfaces that is really no big deal and rivals are real quick to judge with extreme predjudice and go so far as to try and slander a good man's name on a public forum.

oldenglish · 9 months ago

I have said nothing about Bowden that isn't factual.

But since you choose to slander "the place known as Thug U", perhaps you could provide some facts to substantiate your bluster.

"a very minor infraction surfaces that is really no big deal"

Right - "a very minor infraction". Cheating is acceptable behavior to you? Does your wife know that? Is that what you teach your kids?

OU_Ron · 9 months ago

TC is a bachelor and no children, he is however a die-hard Texas fan, maybe you can use another example using Texas.....;-)

Zac · 9 months ago

Now, Ron, you cut dat out! You could have at least given oldenglish something more challenging.

OU_Ron · 9 months ago

Just trying to keep up good will between teams Zac....just think about it, we wouldn't have Fanblogs if no one talked....;-)

oldenglish · 9 months ago

Texas? That would explain it.

1Tomcat · 8 months ago

Thanks Ron No help needed FSU=Redneck?
I didn't invent the term Thug U don't know who authored it
its kinda funny that everybody knows which team that is

OU_Ron · 8 months ago

No problen TC...I'm kinda like the guy the state trooper pulled over for speeding....the trooper asked the driver " got any I.D....the driver replied " about whut "

Zac · 8 months ago

I prefer the guy who gets pulled over and is involved in this conversaiton:

Trooper: Did you know how fast you were going?

Perp: Hell no, officer, the needle only goes as high as 120!

1Tomcat · 8 months ago

Ron you might be a redneck if your Mama does not remove the Marlboro from her lips when she tells the trooper to kiss her -@ss

1Tomcat · 8 months ago

OU Ron Guy gets pulled over in College Station Texas-Officer tells the driver, says on your license that you are supposed to wear glasses. Man Says I have contacts-- I don't care who you know I'm still gonna write you a ticket

OU_Ron · 8 months ago

TC, sounds like the same guy that was having trouble understanding an invoice to pay, so he called his secretary and said since you're a ATM grad...if I gave you $ 2,000.00 minus 14%..how much would you take off....she said " everything except my earrings "

Sorry Kev, no more off the subject lingo.....

1Tomcat · 9 months ago

Uh No careful- remember that this site is not the place for personal attacks.
I'll leave your family out of discussion-I suggest you do the same

oldenglish · 9 months ago

Sorry, no personal attack was intended. I was just asking if cheating - which you called "a very minor infraction" - as a means to getting ahead, is a value you espouse and promote.

1Tomcat · 8 months ago

Hey Buddy and I mean the term lightly- I do not condone any inappropriate behavior-period. I have a very high standard of ethics and morals. Look some teachers or tutors helped some boys with some danged on-line music lessons- big frigging deal. so what
The coaching staff was probably not aware of any infraction- contrary to what you might what to believe. Once the minor infraction was discovered the university did everything it was supposed to do, and reported the so-called violation to the NCAA- Big Deal ?? no I mean it aint like stomping on peoples heads on nationwide T.V. actions which you try to defend- appalling.
Look man I don't have a dog in the fight and could care less- You obviously have somekind of thing against coach Bowden- which is okay by me I dont give a sh-t. Why don't you bring up one player that committed serious crimes twenty years ago- ya that might help your argument- Is That the best you can do -give it a break dude
Adios Hookem God Bless coach Bowden

Regan · 9 months ago

Tomcat, from what I've seen, oldenglish just calls it the way he sees it. He's an old timer with little to prove to us, but he seems to be cool about it.

I remember from way back to the Puntrooski game (FSU@CLEM 1988) how everyone saw Bowden then, with the "score, score, score" mindset, the team's rapid rise to national power status, and the occasional high-profile issues with players (Peter Warrick, etc).

It's easy to get the impression that "something fishy was going on", but in retrospect, I seriously doubt anything overt did.

...Just...don't pick on Da U...I have to represent, man... :)

TampaGator · 9 months ago

Somehow I'm not quite feel'n particulary inclined to stand in the way of OldeE's buckshot here...

I guess the barrells seem to be facing in the right general direction, so I'll just step aside on this one, and enjoy the fireworks....

...(and damn, talk about "...both barrells blazn'...").


GO GATORS!!

Zac · 9 months ago

Careful how ya playz the old-timer card there, Regan...

Porcine · 9 months ago

You tell it like it is, Aiesha.

Regan · 8 months ago

Hey, that's what OE said to me a while back...no collateral damage intended. :)

1Tomcat · 9 months ago

Hey Regan its cool man-I don't have a dog in the fight, just trying to be fair and objective and for the most part impartial. Mr Bowden is a great CFB coach and a fine human being. Just seems like Ole English got a burr under his saddle.
Its kinda hypocritical for a UM alum or fan to be judgmental about a rival, whose program retains the same coach for numerous years.
Adios Hookem

Zac · 8 months ago

As much as I admire and respect the entire Bowden family, I think ole Bobby has been reduced to "Was a great coach". I think part of the issue is he's no longer "the man"; he's been reduced to a figure-head, and i-con. He neither has the time, patience, nor the energy to provide the over-sight he used to. As I prefer to believe, he either loves the game & the kids too much to just walk away, or as Gator Hippy prefers to believe, he's in it for that friggen record between him & Jo Pa. Either way, his current stature has likely contributed to the lack of over-sight necessary to mitigate what we've come to know as this latest scandal. Sad either way.

1Tomcat · 8 months ago

Look Zac Bowden could coach my team if he wanted- whats really funny about all this stuff is that I personally think that Jimmy Johnson is one of the best ever- college or pro- Johnson vs Switzer? Johnson wins air attack vs grind it out on the ground.

Regan · 8 months ago

Ah, I get what you're saying. That works...

oldenglish · 9 months ago

My feelings about Bobby Bowden have nothing to do with "jealousy, hatred or whatever", as you presume to know. My feelings toward Bowden have to do with the fact that I believe he's not a nice human being. He does have a demeanor that appeals to rednecks, misogynists, and the narrow-minded who feel nothing is more important than college football - and especially FSU football.

If you'll take the time to read this, maybe you'll understand - maybe not.


Mike Bianchi
Orlando Sentinel
March 5, 2004

It was Christmastime, 1993, when former Florida State football player Michael Gibson raped her.

He broke into her apartment, shot her twice, leaving two gaping holes in her chest. Then, as she lay there bleeding and crying, he continued with the sexual assault. And then he left her for dead.

Except before he left the scene, this deranged monster of a man took one final liberty:

Michael Gibson stole the Christmas presents on his way out.

\"How low can you get?\" says John Witherspoon, the husband of the young woman who was raped that day. \"How could Bobby Bowden ever write a letter in that man's behalf, to try and help that man someday get out of prison?\"

Good question and one that hasn't been asked nearly enough. Since when did Bobby Bowden become a spokesperson for rape and rapists?

Bowden chose to speak out the other day in support of embattled Colorado Coach Gary Barnett and, in the process, questioned the validity of recent rape allegations against Colorado football players. Bowden, who seems suddenly to have become an expert on rape crisis counseling, questioned why the alleged victims took so long to report crimes that happened a few years ago.

\"I did not understand how a young lady can say she was abused, or whatever it was, two years later,\" Bowden told reporters in South Carolina. \"At the time, why don't you go report it? It seems like you ought to report it right [away]. So it makes me say, 'Well, did it really happen like that? I don't know.' \"

I wonder if Bobby also questions the integrity of the boys who were abused by Catholic priests and were too ashamed and embarrassed to come forward until years later? Or is it only boys who tell the truth?

\"I wish I could say that I'm surprised by Bobby Bowden's comments,\" says Witherspoon, an attorney in South Carolina. \"Doesn't he always take the side of the athlete no matter what? It sure seems that way.\"

Bowden, of course, knows nothing about the specifics in Colorado. He doesn't know the alleged victims. He doesn't know the players involved. All he seems to know is that he's a football coach, and football coaches defend their brethren and their boys -- defend them all the way to the penitentiary if necessary.

If anybody has a right to feel betrayed by Bowden's public stance on rape, it is Witherspoon and his wife. She's a former Florida State student who was the victim of the horrifying sexual assault at the hands of Gibson, a former FSU running back who was on the team for less than a season. Gibson also was convicted on three other rape charges -- one in which he held a gun on a man and made him watch while he sexually assaulted his girlfriend. Gibson received six life sentences: four for rape, one for armed burglary and one for attempted felony murder.

\"What we have here is a serial rapist who has raped, we know of, four women,\" Tallahassee state attorney Willie Meggs said in court. \"Brutalized them with firearms, physical force, deadly weapons. I want to be sure he never gets out.\"

This serial rapist is the man for whom Bowden wrote a self-described \"letter of reference\" a few months ago before a hearing in which Gibson's lawyers tried to get the life sentences overturned so that Gibson someday would be released from prison. Gibson is the adopted son of former FSU player Ernie Sims Jr. and Alice Sims. Their son, Ernie Sims III, is a sophomore linebacker for the Seminoles who was rated by some recruiting analysts as the nation's No. 1 prep player coming out of high school.

In the reference letter to Circuit Judge Kathleen Dekker, Bowden wrote, \"I can only account for what I know about him when I was recruiting him out of [Tallahassee's] North Florida Christian High School and for the time he was on our football team at Florida State University.\" Bowden went on to write that Gibson was \"no problem\" when he suited up for the Seminoles and that he has a \"loving, caring family.\" At the end, Bowden concluded: \"Thank you for reading my letter and may God direct you in your decision.\"

The letter was written on Florida State stationery and signed \"Coach Bowden.\"

When the letter became public through court records, Witherspoon said his wife was \"crushed and crestfallen.\" This is a woman who loved Florida State, graduated from the school, and was a huge football fan whom friends say \"revered Coach Bowden.\"

\"When she first found out about Bobby Bowden's letter, she couldn't even watch Florida State games on TV anymore,\" Witherspoon said. \"How can you support a serial rapist? How could any coach speak up on behalf of this animal?\"

At the hearing in October, Witherspoon's wife had to get up and relive that horrible day once again. She's 34 now, an attorney and a mother of two. But, still, 11 years later, she can't forget. How could she?

\"He shot me first, and then he raped me,\" she testified. \"There's not a day that goes by that I don't think about it. The thought of him getting out of prison terrifies me.\"

Judge Dekker agreed. She ruled that Gibson must spend the rest of his life in jail. \"You have committed unspeakable crimes,\" she told him. \"Monstrous crimes.\"

It has been said that Bobby Bowden sees the good in people, almost to a fault. But despite this penchant for blind loyalty, how could you ever see any good in any man who has shot and then raped a woman?

After the Gibson hearing, Linda Miklowitz, the president of Florida's branch of the National Organization for Women, wrote a letter of protest about Bowden to Florida State President T.K. Wetherell. In the letter, obtained by the Sentinel on Thursday, Miklowitz lashed out: \"Until FSU starts taking seriously sexual violence against women by athletes, the school will continue to send the despicable message to hundreds of young men that rape is okay. Censuring Bowden would be a good first indication of change of course.\"

Miklowitz's suggestion obviously never was heeded because this week Bobby Bowden, it seems, once again turned into Bobby Knight -- except Bowden's graduation rate isn't nearly as high. It was Knight who once advised victims that, \"if rape is inevitable, relax and enjoy it.\" Bowden's comments and actions, although not as callous, are just as insensitive.

Wetherell came to Bowden's defense Thursday in an e-mailed statement in which he wrote: \"I have known Coach Bowden for years. I am sure he never meant to suggest in any way that he condones any type of abusive behavior.\" What's even more troubling is that this isn't really just about Bowden; it's about the culture and the code of the locker room. In a sports world filled with attractive recruiting hostesses and under-the-table sex favors, women are treated as accessories and enticements.

Boys will be boys. Girls will be toys.

\"It seems to me that these coaches help create this atmosphere of entitlement,\" Witherspoon says. \"The athletes are led to believe that they are special; that the system owes them something. They think they can take anything they want, and that includes women. It's like, 'If she doesn't want me, I'm just going to take her.' \"

This is not to say Bowden or any coach condones rape, but -- at the same time -- shouldn't they go out of their way to condemn it? Rape is a serious problem in college, and one study found that one-third of campus rapes are perpetrated by athletes.

Instead of always defending the players, just once wouldn't you like to hear a coach say, \"How's the victim doing? Is she OK? What can we do to help her?\"

And instead of writing a letter of reference on behalf of the rapist, just once wouldn't you like the coach to write a letter of concern to the woman who was raped?

Bobby Bowden defends his insensitive comments about rape by railing against \"political correctness.\" But this isn't about political correctness; it's about correctness -- period. It's about doing and saying the right things and sending the right message.

You don't question the honesty of an alleged rape victim you've never met.

And you don't write letters on behalf of serial rapists.

Especially if you sign your letters \"Coach Bowden.\" That title means a lot to young men.

Kevin @ Fanblogs · 9 months ago

Guys - just to repeat - since we haven't had to say it yet in 2009 - please do not copy & paste articles into comments. This is a violation of fair use to the copyright holders.

oldenglish · 9 months ago

My feelings about Bobby Bowden have nothing to do with "jealousy, hatred or whatever". They have to do with my belief that he's not a particularly decent human being. But there's no question that he appeals to a certain segment of the male population, who - in my opinion - are rednecks and misogynists, and who think nothing in the world is as important as college football - in particular, FSU football.

If you read the story that begins below the bold banner, "COMMENTS", maybe you'll understand. Maybe you won't.

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/sports_bianchi...

U.of S.C.1978 · 9 months ago

Okay I get your point. It's not new, or original. I read the Slantinel for the 12 years I lived in Orlando.

I repeat, what else ya got? Put up, or shut up.

oldenglish · 9 months ago

"Slantinel"? What's that supposed to mean? Just because you can't get a grip on honesty and reality doesn't mean a newspaper is to blame.

But, good for you, you can read. What difference does it make that this story was written by an Orlando Sentinel sportswriter, It was also picked up by the L.A. Times, Chicago Tribune and many others. The fact of the matter, is that it's substance is factual. Just because you, for some reason - probably your parents - can't admit or recognize the truth, doesn't minimize the facts. You need to learn to open your mind to paying attention and learning from those of us who have more intelligence than you, instead of being such a contentious wiseguy. You need all the help you can get.

Ramblin' Gator · 9 months ago

In all seriousness, The Orlando Sentinel is among the worst newspapers in America for inventing controversy and falsely inflaming emotions. They should change their name to The Orlando Enquirer (IMHO). You also can't judge the local population by the clowns who post there. They are one of the reasons I post here. FWIW, I actually like Mike Bianchi's writing, but I've learned not to take him seriously.

Personally, I don't think Bowden is as evil as you appear to, though I will assert that he got a free pass from the media during much of his tenure at FSU. They aren't giving him a free pass now, though.

War_Eagle_Atlanta · 9 months ago

I'm thinking twice before calling our paper the The Atlanta Urinal and Constipation with Old English's predilection for the print media...

Ramblin' Gator · 9 months ago

I'll take the AJC over the OS any day. There are a couple of quality newspapers in Florida. Unfortunately, neither is published in Orlando.

oldenglish · 9 months ago

I don't subscribe to or read the Orlando Sentinel, so I can't comment on your assertion that it is "among the worst newspapers in America for inventing controversy and falsely inflaming emotions". So I'm not certainly not defending or shilling for the Orlando Sentinel.

But from what I know, all the basic facts of the Bianchi article to which I posted a link are absolutely true.

Michael Gibson was then and is now serving multiple life sentences for serial rape and attempted murder.

Michael Gibson played one season for Bowden at FSU.

Michael Gibson is the brother of Ernie Sims, who in 2003, was the #1-rated linebacker in high school, and a player Bowden desperately wanted (and ultimately got).

Bowden wrote a letter on FSU letterhead, vouching for Michael Gibson's character, and saying he deserved leniency. That's Michael Gibson, brother of Ernie Sims, and a four-time rapist and attempted murderer.
(Gibson got "leniency" when he got a life sentence. He - and others like him - should be put to death. It serves no purpose to keep them alive at taxpayer expense.)

Ernie Sims signed with FSU,

What part of that scenario are you suggesting the Orlando Sentinel and Mike Bianchi "invented"? Don't shoot the messenger just because you don't like the way they (accurately) portray a man who has taken great pains to convince everybody that he's a saint.

As you say, the media "aren't giving him a free pass now", now that he's showing everybody his true colors - that he's a selfish man, more interested in self-promotion and his own wins total, than he is about doing what's best for Florida State University. And yes, that included devising a scheme to allow him to hire his unqualified son as offensive coordinator, in defiance of state nepotism laws.

Ramblin' Gator · 9 months ago

Dude, you got me ALL wrong...

I am not a fan of Bobby Bowden or FSU and I'm not defending either. You seem to disagree with another poster's use of the word "Slantinel" and I was actually defending that point of view. Furthermore, the bloggers who post on the Sentinel's web site tend to be the kind who are just there to vent, not discuss.

You are right about the whole Michael Gibson / Ernie Sims fiasco. The thing I noticed was that 2003 was the year that Bobby Bowden changed and his treatment in the media started changing too. Prior to 2003, he'd tell the press "aw shucks" and "dadgummit" and they would write a puff piece on what a nice guy he was. I followed the Adrian McPherson story very closely that year, mostly because he is from my hometown. I noticed when the McPherson story broke, Bobby seemed to take it seriously and the press actually covered the story, rather than continue gushing about how great Bowden was.

BTW, I noted that you "quoted" several things I wrote back to me and then quoted the word "invented" as if I had ever used that word to describe Bianchi's story, which - of course - I didn't (I remarked that they "invent controversy", not stories). With inventive writing skills like that, you should go apply for a job at the Slantinel.

oldenglish · 9 months ago

Given the definition of "invent" - "to fabricate or produce (as something useful) for the first time through the use of the imagination or of ingenious thinking and experiment" - I don't know that it's possible to "invent" controversy about a story that is based on hard facts.

On the one hand, the paper may try to embellish the story to fit it's own agenda - which is what I assume you're accusing "the Slantinel" of doing. And those who support whomever or whatever is the subject of the story may choose to defend the subject by claiming the facts are not the facts, and the paper is simply "inventing controversy".

I don't know. As I said, I don't read the "Slantinel", and therefore don't know that that's their M.O.

Ramblin' Gator · 8 months ago

Nicely expressed!

FWIW, the Slantinel's agenda is to sell newspapers. Simply expressing the facts doesn't sell enough for them. In the article you linked regarding Jamar Hornsby, Bianchi employs hyperbole and moral outrage (e.g. "Is this the most disgusting story in state football history?") to stir up emotions. Gators fans will be outraged and Gator-haters will enoy it. Meanwhile, the subject of the story - that being Mr. Hornsby - did something deplorable. That's really the only fact in the story and it's not in dispute. So Bianchi throws some kerosene on the fire and hopes to raise the passions of readers. In this way, he is inventing controversy and falsely flaming emotions.

oldenglish · 8 months ago

Without rereading the Jamar Hornsby story, I'd say you're correct. However, I really didn't see that same fanning of the flames in the Michael Gibson story.

I suppose it's the glass half-full or half-empty conundrum. It's probably why I think it's unfair to continue to characterize today's UM football program as "thug U", for transgressions that occurred 20 years ago, while some never miss an opportunity to perpetuate that stereotype.

Ramblin' Gator · 8 months ago

As a non-Hurricane fan, my perspective is that the "Thug U" moniker was well-earned. It's clear to me that Randy Shannon is running a different kind of program now, but it will take time for the Canes' old reputation to be supplanted.

oldenglish · 8 months ago

It was well-earned and deserved during the Johnson and Erickson eras. It is neither deserved or appropriate in 2009.

Ramblin' Gator · 8 months ago

Sorry pal, but people have a funny way of deciding for themselves when a reputation has changed. You don't get to tell them what their opinion is.

oldenglish · 8 months ago

Oh, I'm well aware of that. There are still millions of people in this country who are convinced that President Obama is a Muslim terrorist. So you're right, stupid people are entitled to be stupid as long as they want to remain ignorant.

Ramblin' Gator · 8 months ago

Now you're mixing apples and oranges. President Obama did nothing to earn that reputation other than have an unfortunately coincidental middle name, UM did PLENTY to earn their reputation.

oldenglish · 8 months ago

But that's what makes it far worse in Obama's case - and by the way, cretins like Limbaugh and Nannity had as much to do with spreading that misinformation as did Obama's middle name. UM absolutely did earn that moniker back in the 1980's and 90's.

Ramblin' Gator · 8 months ago

I agree completely, but don't get me started on politics - we'll both get banned from this site.

oldenglish · 8 months ago

No problem.

Kevin @ Fanblogs · 8 months ago

That's correct. Politics is for... somewhere else, preferably with egg-beaters and coffee.

Zac · 8 months ago

And here I was thinking it belonged with cognac and cigars - oops, that's the market.

1Tomcat · 8 months ago

Hey RG way to go man BTW Ron Paul was my man-LOL
you shoulda known-why the H not? I laughing real hard right now- really enjoyed reading RG vs OE stuff purty good
Adios Hookem

Porcine · 8 months ago

You mean he's not?
..................................................................................

TampaGator · 8 months ago

OldeE:

Point of order/clarification; I'm having something of an "issue" here with the timeline, if you will.

12/93, Gibosn commits offense, arrested shortly after.

Sometime in '94, he's convicted.

Bianchi's article was written in '05; makes reference to "hearing in October" being 11 years after the incident.

'93 + 11= 2004.
'94 + 11= 2005.

Sims was best HS/LB in '03--which means he would be sign LOI in Feb 2004.

Hence whether the hearing was in Oct '04 or '05 (not clear from article), it would appear to have been after the Sims signed LOI.

Now based on my understanding of the sequence of events--Bowden appears to have written the letter AFTER Sims signed LOI; but Bowden wouldn't have to write a letter to "get him to commit" if he already signed LOI.

So my question is basically, if the above sequence is accurate, doesn't that call into question the cause/effect relationship between between the letter and Sims?

Not saying there is anything even remotely acceptable about the letter--just questioning motivation being to get Sims to sign. Seems like Sims was already Tally bound anyway, since FSU was already in the family.



GO GATORS!!

oldenglish · 8 months ago

It would appear from this Sept. 27 2003 L.A.Times story, that Bowden had already written the letter. Which would mean that when Sims signed in Feb, 2004, Bowden had fulfilled his promise to Sims.

http://articles.latimes.com/2003/sep/27/sports/...

Now, the question is - was the L.A. Times conspiring with the Orlando Sentinel to manufacture this whole affair before it really happened?

Google is a wonderful tool.

TampaGator · 8 months ago

Olde:

Thank you for clearing that up.


GO GATORS!!

oldenglish · 8 months ago

I didn't clear anything up. I just pointed a sanctimonious one in the direction of the long-standing documented facts. Sorry if I burst your "timeline doesn't fit" theory.

TampaGator · 8 months ago

I guess I'm just not as hung up on Bowden as you are; I was simply going on what was supplied.

Sanctimonious, huh? That's fresh....think I'll use that sometime...


GO GATORS!!

oldenglish · 8 months ago

You already did, that's why I used it. I know as a Gator, your vocabulary of multi-syllabic words is limited. But seeing as how you knew that one, I wanted to make it easy and not confuse you.

TampaGator · 8 months ago

Old-E:

"...I know as a Gator, your vocabulary of multi-syllabic words is limited...'

Don't you wish it were so.

You haven't impressed anyone with your mastery of the English language; you've only impressed with your vitriol and immaturity.

(how 'bout them "multi-syllabic" words, prof?)

LMAO!!


GO GATORS!!

U.of S.C.1978 · 9 months ago

If we wanted to start a site devoted to various and sundry misdeeds committed by athletes around the nation, then we would probably have new stuff to talk about all the time. That link you put up is old news. It is apparent by now, that you have nothing new to contribute to the subject. You have reduced yourself to diarretic, digit dribbling.

Kevin @ Fanblogs · 8 months ago

Such a site exists: http://badjocks.com/

And you're correct about the rest of your point. :-)

U.of S.C.1978 · 8 months ago

I kinda figured it might, lol.

Zac · 8 months ago

"...there's no question that he appeals to a certain segment of the male population, who - in my opinion - are rednecks and misogynists, and who think nothing in the world is as important as college football."

Oldenglish, I happen to be one of those fools who believe in giving people their due; i.e. giving them a chance to speak (It's their right, after all.), and listening to what they have to say. That said, all in all, you've had quite a bit to say, including the segment above.

Consider this, however. I was born and graduated from HS in up-state NY. Though I attended WVU, and my wife is from WV, my family and I lived in the NE for the better part of my children's lives. While attending WVU, I've had the opportunity to watch Bobby Bowden coach. I've taken classes with a couple of his sons. I've not only met his wife, a fine lady, by the way, but was honored to share a meal with other friends at his table. If nothing else, they are a people who believe in family values; at least that was my impression at the time. He didn't want to leave WVU, he was driven out, despite a fine bowl season.

That said, if I fit the description you've graced us with, my oldest (not to mention youngest) would be playing football somewhere; I would have seen to it. Nope; the youngest studies fine arts & political science. The oldest studies advanced materials, and I can guarantee ya, the materials he's involved with won't be applied to better helmets or shoulder pads. So, while I really enjoy college football, this blog, and most of its participants, I don't think I quite fit the mold you got there.

So, what's my point? My point is this: You've made your point! And, you've raised a few hackles along the way, including mine. In this case, what's done is done. The NCAA will have their way; FSU will survive. Perhaps it's time to move on. Watchu think?

oldenglish · 8 months ago

I accept that you're entitled to your opinion. As a native West Virginian who twice went through the recruitment process with Bowden - once as a high-school player and once as a parent - my opinions are, I think, as equally grounded in my real-life experiences and perception of reality as are yours.

Zac · 8 months ago

No one is arguing that I'm entitled to my opinion, or that you're entitled to your opinion, which I respect. And, by the way, I also feel you've made some very good points. Additionally, no one has said that your life experiences, upon which your opinions may be based, are any more valid or invalid than my life experiences, upon which my opinions are based. That wasn't my point; it wasn't even one of my points.

One of my points, though not directly stated, lays in the fact that you chose to categorize some of us based upon our feelings (admiration or lack there-of) of the man and the game of college football. That's unfair...in the same way that cheating is unfair: a fault in which you made your opinions very clear.

While some may feel as you do, rightly or wrongly about Mr. Bowden and how he's conducted himself in the past up to this point, others likely run the gamut from raw disdain to god-worship. I simply admire the man and his family. I applaud his accomplishments. Is he perfect? No. Does that make the mistakes he's made OK? No. Has he likely done things for which he's far from proud? Yes. Can the same be said about me? You betcha. Would I be lying if I said the same about you? I'll let you answer that, should you choose to do so.

My point here-in: We all make mistakes. That doesn't make them right, but flawed as we all are, even the best intentioned fail. That doesn't make any of us bad men. It only makes us human. We can still choose, rightly or wrongly, to accept an individual as we see them. So, at this point, why not agree to disagree? Just a thought.

StoneColdSports · 9 months ago

Andrew Carter covers FSU Sports for the "Orlando Sentinel". Hear his exclusive comments on the NCAA punishment story on "Stone Cold Sports". http://www.stonecoldsports.com. Comments include whom is really to blame for the trouble, what FSU will cover in their appeal, and what the NCAA missed. Also don't forget our year-round college sports coverage with interviews in audio and video only at "Stone Cold Sports". Thanks to everyone for bookmarking us and passing the word.

Porcine · 9 months ago

h.

Regan · 9 months ago

Please forgive this; I feel like such a Newb, even though I've been posting for years now...

What the heck does that mean?

WarEagleFan · 9 months ago

That's the Defacto reply to anything that is unwanted and or unnessasary

Regan · 8 months ago

Thanks; that's pretty much what I had gathered via context, but until the glossary gets published, I didn't know for sure. :)

U.of S.C.1978 · 9 months ago

It's self-explanatory Regan.

War_Eagle_Atlanta · 9 months ago

You guys attempt to flag spam like that in the future...

Porcine · 9 months ago

Is that an order?

Ramblin' Gator · 8 months ago

SIR YES SIR!!

Zac · 8 months ago

Pst, pst, RG...how long do we have to stand at attention?

Ramblin' Gator · 8 months ago

Is sarge still here? No? Then RUN!!

Zac · 8 months ago

LOL!!!

War_Eagle_Atlanta · 8 months ago

AT EASE, ladies...

OU_Ron · 8 months ago

I'm here to do what ever you tell me to, Drill Sargent !! " what a gump "

Zac · 8 months ago

That's a faaact, Jack!!!

U.of S.C.1978 · 9 months ago

More like a play call, I think. I'll try to stop that big mo fo. You slow down the guy beside him.