DISQUS

Unbiased · 11 months ago

Let me preface this by telling you, I am a Texas fan, I liked Texas tonight, but I am first and foremost, UNBIASED. I am a TX alum, as well as Purdue alum and a graduate alum from one other school that will remain nameless. However, I am UNBIASED. Here is my UNBIASED opinion:

If anyone can claim a split national title, it is Utah. Those guys went UNDEFEATED, including 5 bowl opponents.

Neither UF nor OU can claim that.

At the end of the day, the kids at Utah did NOT pick their opponents. They won every game. They struggled and beat a TCU team that many people said was better than they were, and they absolutelt dominated an SEC team that was ranked #1 for several weeks of the year.

I love Texas, and I understand their feelings, but Utah is the only ones who can truly claim the half-crown.

Sorry, thats just how it is.

Unbiased · 11 months ago

P.S. - The BCS system is even worse than a bunch of frauds, they are a pack of criminals. I hope the entire BCS is sued into oblivion- I just don't understand why no one has done it yet???? The BCS idiots are so dumb they have no idea how much we would pay to see a playoff, and they will never see a dime because you clutch to your dreams of a horse-buggy monopoly while the world has moved on.

Just imagine this year if the top four post-bowl teams had a two round playoff! How much would that be worth?

TampaGator · 11 months ago

Buffoon.

Sure, file a lawsuit....run to the courts for redress....cry uncle.....that'll solve everything. After all, as everyone knows, the right to compete for a mythical championship is a fundamental constitutional right reserved to all institutions of higher education...

As for playoffs--a playoff system would do nothing more than consolidate the existing viewership to a handful of games--the ones in with the blue blood teams (schools like OSU, Texas, UF, Notre Dame, So Cal, etc.,) in them, not even (necessarily) the "championship" games.

Look, I appreciate what Utah accomplished on the field as much as any fan--but they couldn't even buy up their allotment of tickets--TO THE SUGAR BOWL--IN A YEAR IN WHICH THEY WERE F$%#N "UN-DE-FEATED" (as they themselves are so proud to proclaim).

Don't get it, do you? Utah rode the coattails of the blue-bloods into our living rooms. Good for them. But please stop with the crap about how much they "deserve" anything; they bring very little in terms of $$$ or viewership to the table. The infrastructure was in put into place for them by the blue bloods. Take the blue bloods out of the equation, and that crystal ball isn't even crystal anymore--it'd be made of cheap glass, or plastic...perhaps even styrofoam....and forget having the games piped into the comfort of your living room--you'd be lucky to see them pay-per-view.

And while you're busy inquiring on the evil nature of the BCS, may I suggest that you begin your investigation with the mirror? For if the BCS really is such a fraudulent criminal and enterprise, why the hell are YOU watching? Why are YOU a TEXAS fan?

The bottom line: the bowl system is a unadulterated specimen of market driven capitalism in its purest from. I suggest you savor it while it lasts--soon enough you will get your wish, and the gubm'nt will come along and "fix" things but good....


GO GATORS!!

GeauxTigers0107 · 11 months ago

"But please stop with the crap about how much they "deserve" anything; they bring very little in terms of $$$ or viewership to the table.

You may be right about that but what they do bring is an undefeated team who beat everyone on the field. Including the #1 team in the country (for most of the season).....and quite handily, I might add. It's just unfortunate that Utah was/is geographically challenged in relation to their bowl game location. For this, they should not be penalized.

Geaux Tigers
Geaux SEC

TampaGator · 11 months ago

Sure...an undefeated team that mowed down a MWC conference schedule, and ONE solid but depleted, unsuspecting SEC team.

Not enough.

Utah beat New Mexico only 13-10 ????? That's equal to a loss.

Utah eeked out a win against a Michigan team in disarray, merely 25-23; and v. TCU, agian, only 13-10...their body of work simply doesn't stack up to OU or UF's.

They're not being "penalized"; they're simply not being given something they did not earn.


GO GATORS!!

GeauxTigers0107 · 11 months ago

Makes no difference how depleted or unsuspecting a given team is. That team had just as much opportunity and time to be ready for the game as Utah did. You field the best team you can. If you ask any Alabama fan, player or coach if they still thought they would blow out Utah pregame, I'm sure you get a resounding Hell Yeah. Alabama led your boys going into the 4th quarter then got thumped by Utah. Should this discount your body or work then? A loss to Ole Miss at home? Discount your work? No, I don't think so. Would you call them more deserving if they thumped New Mexico the way you guys did Citadel?

Bottom line is they beat 5 bowl teams this year and the team that led you through 3/4's of the game....I would say they've earned it and then some.

Agree to disagree Tampa...that's all.
Peace

Geaux Tigers
Geaux SEC

TampaGator · 11 months ago

This reminds me of how SEC Fan was blabberin' on about how LSU was the first 2 loss team to win a NC....

...oh wait...there weren't any SEC Fans singing that tune...

...but you are right about this much--we disagree.


GO GATORS!!

GeauxTigers0107 · 11 months ago

And had it been your team with two losses last year getting picked to go play for the MNC, I'm sure you would've been the first in line calling bullsh.it. Get over it dude. You should've been happy that at least LSU brought the crystal back to the SEC. Instead, you were probably moping about a powerful Michigan team kicking your butt in what amounted to a home game.

FWIW, I'm pulling for the Gators vs Oklahoma. If Harvin gets to 100%, he could be the difference maker.

Geaux Tigers
Geaux SEC

TampaGator · 11 months ago

Get over what? The point I was making was that SEC Fan (me included) WAS NOT sounding that tune. I wasn't throwing it in your face, or saying that Hey, y'all lost 2x....

As for michigan...I reitierate my canned response:

UF was rebuilding; Michigan had a senior laden team with NC aspirations going in. We over achieved by going to Cap one bowl; they underachieved.

Wasn't moping at all; was busy making plans for this yeaer.

Maybe you should pull for OU; it will be more politically correct of you...more people will like you...


GO GATORS!!

GeauxTigers0107 · 11 months ago

Guess I took that the wrong way then because that's what it sounded like to me. That's why I threw the Mich loss back atcha. I hated seeing it last year as much as you did.

As far as pulling for OU...it's not gonna happen. I have nothing against them but they don't play in the SEC, therefore, that disqualifies them from receiving my support. And I couldn't give two sh.its about who likes or dislikes me on this or any other site. It won't change where my loyalty lies.

Geaux Tigers
Geaux SEC

Tommy_Trojan · 11 months ago

TampaGator:

Who did Florida beat? Are your really gonna count any SEC teams in this year? Do you not understand that Utah would have blasted both Georgia and LSU and may not have lost to Mississippi? What is all this conference BS? You know your conference was down this year. That's how Alabama descended to where they are. Although, I have been a great Florida defender (or any SEC Champ for awhile now), the way that Alabama looked against Utah has me wondering. Fortunately for Florida - the Big 12 schools have not looked too overwhelming either.

The whole argument of "who they played" is completely mindless from a logical standpoint. Just because you play and beat a "weak" team - does not mean that you would not have beaten a "good" team on that particular Saturday had they been on your schedule. That is the great fallacy of the SOS rating. Sagarin had Utah rated about 16th in his computer model. This thing is normally pretty good. But, what is the problem? Utah does play a weak MWC schedule overall. They actually won several close games. These two factors make it seem as though Utah is not quite that good. But, here is the "X" factor: some teams just show up to play "Big Games" and some teams don't. Teams that have been notorious for not being able to win "Big Games" are Ohio State, Oklahoma and Notre Dame. For the last several years, these teams have been overrated, as they piled impressive victories on hapless in conference BCS foes. On the other hand, Utah and USC and LSU and Florida State, are just a few teams that almost always show up to win their "Big Games". Didn't mean to exclude Florida - but they lost just last year. I expect that they will show up for this next one. These are intangibles that cannot be measured by any kinda system. These are things that the "voters" have got to remember and quit forgetting about. Oklahoma has lost four straight BCS bowl games - and been flat out embarassed in the last three. Yet, they don't take the same heat that Ohio State has. Why? Ohio State has only lost to some very high echelon teams. Oklahoma has gotten buried by USC and West Virginia and shocked by Boise State. The only game that they've played lately was against LSU in 2003. These misperceptions of football programs is what is causing the problems. YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM! You think that it is who you play that defines your football team, when in fact, that has nothing to do with it at all. For all we know, the National Champion (or best team in America), may come out of the lowly WAC or Sunbelt conferences next year. But, we'll never know, because of all of the mindless stereotyping that has always existed. I have been guilty of the same sort of thing in my own different ways. I have lost alot of money on some football games, where my preconceived notions of one conference's strength, got into the way of my clear judgement. For instance, I know that Alabama isn't all that good, but I put my money on them over Utah. Why? Because I know the SEC is better than the MWC. I also know that Texas is overrated and Ohio State is underrated. But, I put my money on Texas, as I can only remember Ohio State losing in "Big Games" and Texas winning most of their recent bowl games. But, for this year, I knew that Ohio State would give Texas problems. Why did I make that stupid bet? Because of pre-conceived opinions of conference strength instead of looking at the matchup at hand. This stuff goes on all dayum day long and nobody is right even 70% of the time where it comes to picking football games. We all get them wrong. That's why we need a playoff. The two best teams have been rarely on the field for the MNC game.

TampaGator · 11 months ago

Rather than rehashing or even cutting & pasting the substance of my prior posts, I'll simply refer you to my posts below regarding the Utah-Bama game vis a vis the UF Bama game, and playing the occasional SEC team vs. playing a SEC schedule. Night & day, chief.

Just look for the posts marked with the hot little chearleaders icon....

Seems the only thing you and I can agree on, is that So Cal v. SEC champ is long over due.

...one of these years...


GO GATORS!!

Tommy_Trojan · 11 months ago

TampaGator:

No, what we are disagreeing on is your logic. According to your logic, if the SEC indeed was the toughest conference each year, then we should just automatically send the SEC champ to the MNC game. Or, that's how Oklahoma gets selected in this year (the Big 12 is perceived to be the best). This is all complete non-sense. Just because a certain conference is good - does not mean that it fields one of the two very best teams in the land. And, just because a certain conference is weak, does not mean it may not have the very best team. Ohio State did not get beat down because they played in a weak conference in 06' and 07'. They got beat down because they really were not one of the two best teams. West Virginia came out of the Big East last year - and absolutely put the wood to Oklahoma. Sagarin had West Virginia # 1 after all the smoke had cleared. Again, couldn't West Virginia have possibly made a better foe for LSU, rather than Ohio State? Wouldn't USC have made a better candidate? But, the PAC 10 and Big East conferences are "perceived" to be weak. There really is no proof that the PAC 10 really is. There is some that the Big East is somewhat weaker. But, so what? It does not mean that those conferences can't field a very very good team. Under your assumptions, individual football achievements mean nothing, and only the collective body of work by a conference - is what should qualify you for a MNC game. This is just not quite right.

TampaGator · 11 months ago

"...if the SEC indeed was the toughest conference each year, then we should just automatically send the SEC champ to the MNC game...."

I've never suggested that. What I'm saying with the SEC schedule, is that it MITIGATES in favor of the SEC champ.

e.g.:You can't just say well, Utah ran the table, and UF/Bama/OU/USC didn't, therefore Utah is champ--without taking into consideration ALL of the scedules; not just OOC, not just Bowl games....ALL of it. The whole body of work.

My logic isn't flawed; the flawed logic, is the school of thought that disregards conf. play, and focuses ONLY on how Utah matched up v. Bama, vs. how UF did v. bama (even that analysis favors UF, for reasons laid out below but that's besides the point). It's is nothing less than simplistic to think that because Utah beat bama--even decisively--that it could do what bama did.

e.g. 2: why couldn't Ole Miss do what UF did? They beat 'em fair n square? Why couldn't Oregon State do what USC did? They beat them fair n square...

Look at the whole body of work; Utah does NOT stack up against OU or UF (e.g: A one-point loss to an Ole Miss team who smashed TTech in a bowl, is more respectable (less shameful?) than a 3 point win over New Mex).

Texas' and So Cal BOW stack up against UF/OU better than Utah's, but Tx didn't win conf champ, and squeked by OSU whom they should have buried...

...and USCw BOW didn't quite equal UF's due to...

...SOS.

Obviously I'm not alone in this school of thought; it's the prevailing wisdom.


GO GATORS!!

Ben Prather · 11 months ago

Oh wait. Looking back at BCS conference posts I think I am learning how to do this...

That New Mexico game was close because we were looking ahead to TCU 5 days later. Our heads were not in that game.

Also it was a conference game, and conference games are always tougher than our out of conference foes.

New Mexico was 2-2 OOC, including two bowl eligible team one of which they beat. Most of their losses came in conference, a conference that is 2-0 vs. the SEC.

I know it is harder to recruit to Tennessee than Wyoming.

We play a crappy #3 team from the SEC in the Sugar Bowl, who only looked good because of their weak conference schedule, and they did not hold up nearly as well to us as New Mexico, Air Force or TCU.

Sarcasm aside...

A win is not equal to a loss. PERIOD.

jake · 11 months ago

The basic principles of your counter argument are money and tv viewership.

First, the BCS seems to believe that there is no way it could make more money with a playoff. Wrong! Every other sport has a playoff and therefore fans of that sport watch almost every game they can. With the continuously expanding number of bowls, each game slowly becomes less significant as teams are rewarded with mediocrity (ND to the Hawaii bowl). When games are more significant, fans are more inclined to watch them.

Second, in conjunction with the first principle, tv viewership is largely linked to money and not in the positive way BCS-defenders would like to believe.

Bowl attendance in the aggregate is down and only a few bowls saw record profits - mostly due to close proximity of the bowls to the schools. Based on that quantitative evidence, the Utes fan would likely sell far more tickets if they were in the Fiesta bowl instead since that bowl is closer. It's kind of ridiculous to say Utah is a sub-elite program simply because its fans can't travel all the way to New Orleans in a crummy economy. Who's really losing in the situation? The bowls because they can't fill seats, not Utah.

Even from the couch, fans are showing their disfavor for the BCS. The NHL's 2nd annual Winter Classic on New Year's Day increased viewership by 12% this year! I remember the days when New Year's Day meant a horrible hangover medicated with an enormous dose of great college football. Oh how I miss those days.

Finally, what's that game tomorrow? The GMAC bowl? Sure, Ball State is a good team and, if they were playing in a game that actually mattered, I'd probably watch it (e.g. a playoff game). But who honestly wants to watch the GMAC bowl unless there's nothing else on? Or, like most of us on this blog, we'll watch it because we'll take football no matter how we get it.

So, you can blame the fan for watching the criticized BCS. But us fans don't watch it because we like the BCS or its system; we just love college football. Think of how much the NCAA could expand viewership (and consequently profits) if it provided a more exciting and determinative system! I know many NFL fans who claim a similar argument as to why the NFL is better. If I didn't love the tradition and camaraderie of CFB so much, I'd probably be a bigger NFL fan on that same reasoning.

Go ahead and leave Utah at #3 because the only thing keeping them from being a NC is the system. At the end of the day, every person on this blog will watch the NC game because we simply love football, even if the game doesn't provide certainty. As for the rest of the country, the NC game viewership will probably remain the same steady because the non-die-hards now only want to watch the big game. And right after the game, they will gripe about the game lacks credibility and certainty.

As much as I hate to say this, I'd like to see the NHL, NBA, or college basketball put a big game at the same time as the CFB NC game just to push this junk system off its high horse.

TampaGator · 11 months ago

Me like money....

....money bring football into my home...

...money bery goooood!


GO GATORS!!

Jason · 11 months ago

"Every other sport has a playoff and therefore fans of that sport watch almost every game they can. With the continuously expanding number of bowls, each game slowly becomes less significant as teams are rewarded with mediocrity (ND to the Hawaii bowl). When games are more significant, fans are more inclined to watch them."

I disagree. You ask most people about College Basketball and they'll tell you they usually don't pay attention until March Madness. Playoffs in college football could make the regular season meaningless, like they seem to do in college basketball.

Regan · 11 months ago

Be careful with that kind of logic. It's beyond true, but you could get hurt if you aren't careful. :-)

jake · 11 months ago

Jason, you're talking apples and oranges. First, many March Madness fans only pay attention to the tournament because of the hype and betting, not because they truly like college basketball. Second, college basketball has far more regular season games (naturally), which are played during a time when many other major sports are televised - NBA, CFB, NFL, NHL, etc. Regular season college basketball games just get lost in the mix of TV schedules but become a priority when the "big dance" happens in March with few other sports options.

Plain and simple: the NFL plays football in which every game - regular season or playoff - matters and has viewership. Playoff games get more attention simply by nature. A CFB playoff would be the exact same thing just with more teams bidding for a playoff spot. If anything, a CFB playoff might get more attention than an NFL game because underdog teams like Utah would get a chance to upset the big dogs. In contrast, pro sports rarely have true upsets (at least relative to college sports) because every team has the talent to win on any given Sunday.

Ben Prather · 11 months ago

Don't get it, do you? Utah rode the coattails of the blue-bloods into our living rooms. Good for them. But please stop with the crap about how much they "deserve" anything;

You can claim Pride and Prejuduce all you want to. The Blue Bloods made the mistake of estrablishing a criterion that outsiders chould be measured by, beleiving their lies about how significant the gap between the aristocracy and common folk is.

The problem with a system is that eventually someone will find a crack in it. In 2004 the blue bloods thought any old BCS team could put down the red bloods.

Utah showed them up then.

Responding by facing the red bloods against premere blue bloods, just short of the mark, 2006 and 2007 looked like the problem had been solved. Maybe a team would pull out an amazing trick play to rob a team of victory, but certainly everyone would see through that.

Utah has shown them up again.

Either Utah deserves to be considered a blue blood and the MWC needs to join the BCS or the system is broken.

they bring very little in terms of $$$ or viewership to the table.
Utah brought a lot more people a lot more miles than Virginia Tech or Cincinnati did during an economic slow down.

Certainly we are no Notre Dame or Penn State in this regard, but we can hold our own. Unlike Notre Dame or Penn State we also stood our own on the field through 13 games.

TampaGator · 11 months ago

"...Blue Bloods made the mistake of estrablishing a criterion that outsiders chould be measured by, beleiving their lies about how significant the gap between the aristocracy and common folk is..."

If the blue bloods wanted to stack the system in their favor, they would simply eliminate the 85 scholly limit...and return to the days of Notre Dame's and Nebraska's hoarding 5 deep blue chip rosters.

We like and we welcome the competition...but you still need the system to be open and favorable to allow as many blue blood schools to participate--in order to keep the interest in the game peaked.

Schools like Utah and Cincy and the like, who fail to carry their weight in terms of moving product--undercut the whole system for everyone....and yet all we ever hear from the smaller schools riding the bigger schools coattails, is how unfair the playing field is.

The bowl system--even a playoff system (much more so, due to contentration of importance of games)--REQUIRES participation of as many blue blood schools as possible to remain viable. Playoffs would therefore necesitate elimination of the 85 scholly limit.

How'd that be for fair?


GO GATORS!!

Ute_fan · 11 months ago

"Schools like Utah and Cincy and the like, who fail to carry their weight in terms of moving product--undercut the whole system for everyone"

lol I never thought I'd see the day when the an SEC fan felt so put upon by a Mid-Major... I always just thought we were to insignificant to even be noticed lol What a CROCK! This all boils down to the few at the top wanting to consolidate all the money and power to themselves. I wish Tulsa had followed through with their BCS law suit because if they had this system would no longer exist. There is no way the BCS would hold up to Anti Trust precedent if brought to court. further more I love how the MWC is seen as a crap conference because they lack an AQC . All you have to do is to look at the MWC's inter conference record this year to know that they are faring better than the BIG10, PAC10(-USC) and the BIG EAST. Who knows what the future will bring but as for this moment the MWC is probably more competitve from top to bottom than these conferences.

TampaGator · 11 months ago

How original...a conspiracy theory.

"put upon"?

That's just plain funny right there...


GO GATORS!!

colinator5000 · 11 months ago

i agree that the BCS "system" needs to go away, the bowls could host playoff games, with the winners going on to the college national title bowl. go to
www.BSFlag.com/BCS
and send an email BS Flag at the BCS chimps
(check out the video link, i think that's Michael Jackson's monkey with the glasses--hilarious).

gatorhippy · 11 months ago

"At the end of the day, the kids at Utah did NOT pick their opponents.'

No, but they did pick their school...

And deciding to attend a school in a non-BCS conference puts you behind in the MNC race from Day One...

Without ever placing that first step on the field...

JaredIsKing · 11 months ago

That's a pretty week justification for leaving a deserving team in the dust gatorhappy. Very SEC-fan thing to say..

War_Eagle_Atlanta · 11 months ago

Still doesn't make it untrue...

gatorhippy · 11 months ago

It isn't a justification of the BCS or it's system, JIK...

But rather a point made that attending a non-BCS conference school puts you at a disadvantage in numerous ways under attending an BCS institution...

One being that the BCS MNCG may certainly be out of reach...

jake · 11 months ago

Is that a supporting argument? It appears to me to be another reason of why the BCS system is junk, lacks credibility, and politically biased.

gatorhippy · 11 months ago

See above, jake...

But switch "justification of" out and replace it with "supporting argument for"...

Wardboy3 · 11 months ago

For some of these kids UTAH was the only D1 school to offer. So what where they to do then? For others it is about playing for their home state school. Nothing wrong with that.

Weak arguement.

gatorhippy · 11 months ago

"For some of these kids UTAH was the only D1 school to offer. So what where they to do then?"

Assuming you were meaning "What are they to do then?"...

I would say it depends on the individual player's goals...

If the goal is to play for a BCS MNC...

Walk-on and learn to balance ball, school & work or develop a few years in JuCo then shoot for a BCS school...

If the goal is to get a free education over the competitve end result...

Then take the schollie and understand you are starting on the outside of the glass...

"For others it is about playing for their home state school. Nothing wrong with that."

Didn't say there was and it's right noble...

However, if none of the schools in the state are in a BCS conference then they are attending a school and playing for a team that will begin each season at a disadvantage...

"Weak arguement."

As I pointed out above to JIK & jake...

It wasn't an argument for or against...

Simply pointing out that playing at a non-BCS school puts those players at a disadvantage and that they in fact choose the institution and in doing so know that they will be at that disadvantage every season...

Kevin @ Fanblogs · 11 months ago

How 'bout weak PREMISE.... No player has an explicit or implicit right to play in a BCS game. As Yogi would say... Life ain't always fair.

gatorhippy · 11 months ago

I would say not even that...

While not having the implicit or explicit right to play in a BCS game....

One certainly has choices to make...

And where to attend college is one of them...

Kevin @ Fanblogs · 11 months ago

Agreed 100%. I just don't get that some of these guys are trying to argue title entitlement.

gatorhippy · 11 months ago

Right on...

There's only one team with "entitlement" when it comes to BCS berths...

And even they have a standard to meet...

Ben Prather · 11 months ago

And how the mighty have fallen...

Maybe the Hawaii win can turn things around for them.

FSU_Ben · 11 months ago

Is walking on going to get you a chance to play? You have to prove you are best your position. I am assuming from above statements that that is what you mean by people having a choice about where to attend college. A kid from Utah has to pay out of state tuition while he walks on to a team and trys to unseat the 3 people urban already has waiting in line at that spot. Where you go to college is a choice you make but where you get a football scholarhip isn't always. That certainly isn't a fair argument and certainly makes me supportive of the utah AGs antitrust lawsuit. Any argument that can be paraphrased "play for one of these 9 BCS schools if you want to play in a national championship game" loudly screams grounds for such a lawsuit.

Let us not use BCS synonymously with NC game contender. This is certainly not the case.

Yes only the big old tradition laced programs deserve a shot even if another certainly looks better in back to back comparisons of a common opponent. Got it.

Team cohesion means nothing I guess. These kids are successful as a unit at that school, who is to say they would be just as good at random BCS schools (or ones that actually compete for titles).

These arguments don't get stronger with repetition.

Utah looks like the deserve a shot, unfortunatly imo most of us didn't know this until far too late.

Florida is still deserving of a shot but we have certainly identified a 4th party that should also be in the game. Heck we have a 5th in USC. PLAYOFF!

Ben Prather · 11 months ago

Even Utah fans were skeptical. We watched our team on the mtn. All 13 Utah games could be found in NW Florida, certainly everywhere else too.

It was not until the TCU game that Utah all came together. We were not the same team before and after that game. That was our Ole Miss wakeup call.

The excitement of a BCS berth clouded our vision that our eyes could have been much higher.

gatorhippy · 11 months ago

"I am assuming from above statements that that is what you mean by people having a choice about where to attend college."

You assume wrong...

"Where you go to college is a choice you make but where you get a football scholarhip isn't always."

Right...And?

Any argument that can be paraphrased "play for one of these 9 BCS schools if you want to play in a national championship game"

Do I really need to say it one more time?

"Let us not use BCS synonymously with NC game contender. This is certainly not the case."

Hmmm...

Considering without the BCS there would be no NC game for ANY CFB teams to contend in/for regardless of conference affiliation...

'Yes only the big old tradition laced programs deserve a shot even if another certainly looks better in back to back comparisons of a common opponent. Got it.'

Looked better? The box scores are similiar and the Utes benefitted from UF notes & tapes...

The large differences were in that Florida was able to lead a balanced attack against the Tide while Utah had to attack through the air being unable to mount a rushing attack and the three turnovers Utah received that cut Bammer drives short...

"These kids are successful as a unit at that school, who is to say they would be just as good at random BCS schools (or ones that actually compete for titles)."

And who is to say they wouldn't...

'Utah looks like the deserve a shot, unfortunatly imo most of us didn't know this until far too late."

Given the system, it's not about "deserving"...

It's two thirds voter impression and one third computer rated...

"PLAYOFF!"

First intelligent thing I may have ever seen you post...

FSU_Ben · 11 months ago

I think you misunderstood one thing:

"Let us not use BCS synonymously with NC game contender. This is certainly not the case."

Hmmm...

Considering without the BCS there would be no NC game for ANY CFB teams to contend in/for regardless of conference affiliation...

I meant BCS teams... not all are synonymous with national championship contending teams. Some are properly situated though are extremly unlikely to make the run (imagine undefeated vandy) and some on many years aren't even set up to make a run (see 50% of the big east on any given year). Those are matters of opinion of course.

FSU_Ben · 11 months ago

Would you and tampagator be argueing this hard against them if it weren't a year Florida went to the national championship game? I think the level of protest is begining to signal that you actually feel Utah is a threat to Florida's claims to a national championship and feel that if you guys really did believe your own arguments you wouldn't bother to post them.

The facts don't look good for Florida:
Piss poor OOC (FSU not too good but okish, Miami crap Citadel = WTF are we talking str of schedule for at all Hawaii poop).
Piss poor conference play the SEC had a down year evidenced by the SEC (hello Tennessee -stinking corpse-, Vandy, Alabama are strange stories Ole miss had quite a bounce back too considering last year and winning @Florida this year)

The gators schedule though is not a typical SEC schedule considering Georgia is practically a yearly home game (leaving you with 2,3 and 4 SEC away games a year) and they havn't played an OOC opponent out of state since 1991 (when you played 2 away conference games) when they lost to syracuse. They havn't played a western OOC (of mississippi) since they tied USC a 25 years ago. Cushy plush schedules. Leave the rest of the conference (all of whom play much firmer schedules) to argue the brutality of the SEC schedule.

I did feel UF belonged in the NC game when they were scheduled for it and we didn't know then what we know now. Utah is better than we thought, much. Who thought they would beat Alabama.... and who thought they would beat alabama so soundly... and who thought they would beat Alabama more convincingly than the only other loss Alabama suffered this season? Obviously nothing can be done to remedy the situation but should Utah get some garbage AP nod you should not begrudge them, it was only two years ago you were nearly left out of the NC game and (unless you are like me) would have been defensive of some peice of trash AP national championship.

I'm not saying they are better than Florida. I am saying Florida doesn't go out of thier way to prove they are good by sceduleing a remotely acceptable OOC (FSU is the one consistant team after it was mandated by the forerunners to today's board of governers --sources available on request--) and had a breeze through the SEC this year.

I used to right there argueing for SEC schedules but not for the sake of a team that hasn't budged from it's own state for 18 years to play an OOC opponent. I'm running out of evidence with SEC losses to Wyoming and Duke (who florida is 3-2 against) and a complete fear of scheduleing anything west of the mississippi for an away game for a quarter of a century.

gatorhippy · 11 months ago

"Would you and tampagator be argueing this hard against them if it weren't a year Florida went to the national championship game?

Would you actually read the posts?

I'm not "arguing" or "justifying" anything as I already pointed out to JIK, jake & Wb3 above...

"I think the level of protest is begining to signal that you actually feel Utah is a threat to Florida's claims to a national championship and feel that if you guys really did believe your own arguments you wouldn't bother to post them."

Again, Ben, R - E- A- D the posts...

"The facts don't look good for Florida:...game for a quarter of a century."

Ummm...yeah...once again making it clear you have no idea what you are talking about...

FSU_Ben · 11 months ago

As to the last statement where you say I do not know what I am talking about...
That last bit is true, no scheduled away ooc games west of the big river for a quarter of a centruy. I looked it up. 1991 for playing scheudled OOC games out of state at all. This does not count bowls of course as they aren't scheduled.

I posted only facts there so I would guess that is some idea what I am talking about. You may disagree with any of the above and unless it is a stated matter of opinion (such as calling the Georgia game a practical yearly home game for florida) I will give you references.

gatorhippy · 11 months ago

Unfotunately, Benny, that has zero to do with this season...

And while you assuredly feel like you are the first person to ever spew out that info...

I assure you that you are not...

I was actually referring to the fact that you are saying that the UF schedule was actually somehow inferior to any other schedule out there this year...

THAT shows exactly how little you know and essentially renders the rest of your post "white noise"...

I suggest you go back and look a little harder at exactly what was on UF's plate this season...

Or any other season for that matter...

You may not like it but playing in the SEC has it's advantages and a schedule boost is certainly one of them...

FSU_Ben · 11 months ago

I never suggested it was inferior to any other scheudle this year. I will as you suggest look harder though:

Hawaii W 56-10 (This bowl loser was trash)
Miami (FL) W 26-3 (another bowl loser)
@ Tennessee W 30-6 (didn't even see a bowl LOST TO WYOMING)
Mississippi L 31-30 (a quality loss, if ever there was such a thing)
@ Arkansas W 38-7 (was this evidence of a strong SOS?)
No. 4 LSU 5-1 (3-1) W 51-21 (this sure looked good at the time until TROY!)
Kentucky W 63-5 (Oh dear this is what I was looking for as firm evidence of strong SOS)
No. 6 Georgia W 49-10 (Posers)
@ Vanderbilt W 42-14 (LOST TO DUKE!)
No. 25 South Carolina W 56-6 (mighta looked good until they gave the big 10 thier only bowl win and sucked the rest of the regular season)
Citadel W 70-19 (no freakin' comment)
@ No. 20 Florida State W 45-15 (9 wins OOC opponent impressive, til you realize 2 of those opponents were conference members of the citadel!)
No. 1 Alabama (this sheep led several times during the game only to be dominated by Utah in 8 minutes)

In retrospect shoud I really be impressed even if some these teams looked good before Florida?

But again, you brought that up. I suggested UF has gone out of it's way not to prove it is the best but to try to just LOOK the best.

Also even when I am not following college football I always know UF and Miami's schedules. UF's fail to impress on a consistant basis. It may be a tough conference as they say but no one in the SEC has taken pains to prove that the case. Outside the conference you play the worst OOC in the country. WORST. Name a team and Florida has played more cupcakes out of conference (even in the SEC). Worst! No one has more pansies.

Why should it have any SOS boost when no one really has any decent proof that those are tough teams? We base it on history? when two of the top teams LSU and Florida have overall HUGELY losing records to Georgia Tech (Miss, ole miss, USC all do as well) maybe any team that plays Georgia tech should get a massive scheudle boost? They should be a top SEC team considering they have nearly .5 records with SEC greats Alabama, Tennessee, and Auburn too (50 gameish records).

Maybe we should base it on this year's performace and each year thereout because history is pretty meaningless given those numbers eh? This year the SEC had one nice win in Ole Miss/TTU. Outside of that we are hardpressed to find any evidence of SEC dominance.

Reading the schedules of the SEC it's a who's who of who sucks. Wake Forest twice (and the lost both) is one of the best teams scheduled.
Texas by far the best blew out it's SEC opponent.
LA Tech won (another "quality opponent")
There are several southern conference teams, are they joining the SEC soon? AP state, Samford, Wofford, Citadel..
GT continuing it's tradition of SEC dominance 2-1 vs SEC this year.

For the SEC schedule to be worth something they should play, and perhaps actually beat, some worthwhile teams. Florida to it's marginal credit has 2 bowl elidgible OOC victories THAT IS an achievement for the SEC.

You should be ashamed of suggesting the SEC has decent scheudules.

And they may have some sort of SOS boost consideration but it is far from deserved.

TampaGator · 11 months ago

"...Name a team and Florida has played more cupcakes out of conference (even in the SEC...".

We didn't think FSU would be a cupcake.

:)


GO GATORS!!

Ben Prather · 11 months ago

Neither did Utah think Michigan would be.

That was a sloppy ugly game. Our worst of the year by far.

FSU_Ben · 11 months ago

Heh, they have been for 5 years now and still you are suprised?

gatorhippy · 11 months ago

Yup...

You're so right, Ben...

Playing ten bowl teams of which six won their respective bowl and eight of which are in conference and three OOC...

Beating nine of them by double digits and losing by a point to one...

Having opponents amass a NCAA fifth best record of 82-52 (.612)...

Is assuredly a "shameful' schedule full of "cupcakes" & "patsies" ...

OMG, how could UF have even accepted a bowl bid period much less an invite to the BCS CG...

LMAO...

As I stated earlier on this thread and previously on others...

"You have no idea what you're talking about..."

FSU_Ben · 11 months ago

As you said earlier, read my post. It was built on the backs of other weak links. One awesome win in your conference in a bowl and 5 or 6 decent wins makes those bowl teams in conference I addressed all those teams. They were all crap and you lose to the best of them. Alabama I won't say was crap but it isn't all that much different then the 6-6 team from last year. It was the abject weakness of your conference this year that made the difference for them (made a good deal of the difference at least of course increased maturity etc.).

Talk about how many teams went to bowls that will be convincing. Oh they are bowl teams? Wow. The NCAA doesn't even require a winning season anymore and you can have a free div 1-AA game too! Whopee! That made a great deal of those teams elidgible, that and a few wonderous teams from the sunbelt. Read the post. I wanted to make a really long one going over basically the entire ooc of the SEC which is REALLY BAD, you beat a bunch of teams that beat each other and REALLY BAD teams from mostly BAD conferences. That is what I am talking about and the facts are there in plain view, it's not much to talk about which is probably why I "have no idea what I am talking about". I call what I am talking about FACTS. Sorry if you don't like them. I am admiting FSU and Miami are crap but suddenly they are awesome when we talk SOS?

Argue with my individual comments on each team. You also are one game removed from more FCS opponents than anyone else. 1 game removed from almost the entire southern conference .612 sounds hot now doesn't it? .612 should be expected with that combined schedule!

gatorhippy · 11 months ago

Right, Ben...

The Florida schedule is surely weak with their opponents only registering a .612...

Amazing they made a bowl game...

But apparently if Florida's regular season cumulative opposition registering a .612 for the season is "weak", "cupcake", and "full of patsies"...

I guess the rest of the NCAA's is as well given that the other five teams that were in front of them in opponents' cumulative win percentage all had similiar averages...

Ok at .631, Tex at .626, UGA at .616, Ark at .614...

But yeah, Ben...

Gators played a "weak" schedule according to you....

Just like Charlie Ward and Tim Tebow are "similiar stories"...

LMAO...

FSU_Ben · 11 months ago

FACT the southern conference is a FCS conference. FACT most the entire conference is one game removed from Florida.

FACT .612 is good, unless you consider how we got there. Texas and Oklahoma played 2 games against teams that ended the season with 1 loss (regular season) and one that ended it with one loss even after a bowl game.

FACT you are ONE F'ING GAME REMOVED FROM MORE FCS OPPONENTS THAN ANYONE. REMOVE THOSE FREE WINS AND THINGS LOOK A LOT DIFFERENT, REMOVE THEM FROM EVERYONE AND YOU END UP A LOT LOWER ON THE SOS TOTEM POLE. FACT FCS OPPONENTS AND WINS ARE WEAK.

FACT sunbelt opponents are trash.
FACT sunbelt opponents count for a good percentage of those wins.

Basically I am just repeating myself but highlighting the UNDISPUTABLE FACTUAL PART.

The opinion GIVEN THESE FACTS, would be shared by MANY PEOPLE. BUT A SCHEDULE OF OPPONENTS that played WEAK (or should I say only BEAT WEAKLING) OPPONENTS does not TRANSLATE to strong schedule.

My opinon: Florida certainly earned thier berth.
My opinion: Attacking Utah (or especially TEXAS) for claiming the same based on thier schedule is hypocritical.

Those were implied from the thread but those and beating opponents that had weaksauce schedules proves nothing.

As to Charlie Ward, since you mentioned it.

Watching Charlie Ward was special. It was watching TALENT and FINESSE.

Watching Tim Tebow isn't nearly the same (though that may be bias). But it isn't finesse or talent. It is strength, drive and motivation. That and it is obvious he is a product of both a system and the talent around him.

The way they were similar stories Mr. LMAO, is that they were both heisman winning star quarterbacks of Florida schools. Nothing similar there? You really lost the focus of that post.

I guess you took "similar stories" in the wrong way. You thought I meant they were both black or both white? Perhaps that I meant both were home schooled? Perhaps that both got 850 on thier SAT? Both fat?

The stories aren't exactly the same no, good of you to clear up the confusion I may have caused. Ward was a two sport star who threw passes to the numbers and scrambled amazingly away from tacklers with evasive speed.

Tebow is a fat white kid (with 850 SAT) who throws 4 feet over or 4 feet under the numbers consistantly counting on amazing recievers to grab the ball. He plows through a line on called draws and can often stay standing with a tackler on his legs for another 4-5 yards. There is something to say for such pure strength, drive and motivation, as well as obvious charisma but it is talent in a scouts sense of the word. They don't do NFL workouts to test your charisma or drive and motivation. Perhaps they should...

In the future I would like to know if you need me to LABEL all indisputable facts and those things that are strong opinion. I will do so if you need. I was thinking most people are smart enough to know the difference rather than claim an entire post is opinion when only one thing in the entire post is opinion and the rest just evidence to back it up. Dispute the evidence.

I didn't just say your opinion was stupid and leave it at that. I attacked your evidence. In reponse you reposted the same evidence with no addtional backup, some rather irrelevant facts about 4 other teams, and again said my opinions are stupid. That is hardly an attempt at debate.

On the flipside I used facts to support my evidence and earlier I posted specific comments on each team Florida played. FSU was one of your better wins.... and we were trash and we know it. Alabama was your best and a million excuses later they lost to Utah. Ole Miss looked good but then they beat you in the swamp. USC was trash, plain and simple (I wish them luck every year cause I respect the OBC but let us face the fact or dispute it). Arkansas.... yes... they played a hard schedule and LOST BAD. Citadel is Citadel. No one on Utah or Texas' schedule looks that bad. They are a BAD FCS school. LSU, well they had um, thier worst year in a really long time. Kentucky, give me a break, while the had a good year for Kentucky they are a mediocre team on thier best years. Tennessee lost to Wyoming... didn't make a bowl, thier worst season in what 30 years? Hawaii... I won't touch that.

I'm arguing in part of that post that debate is the point of blogging. Please use supporting evidence for why "I have no idea what I am talking about" when I post facts that you make no attempt to dispute. Ensure you have read my post in it's entirety so that you aren't confusedly assuming I didn't read yours, I guess?

.612 I said IS GOOD. Read, comprehend.

I then said how did UF get there. Read, comprehend.

I then went over how UF got there. Read, comprehend.

War_Eagle_Atlanta · 11 months ago

But 850 is BAD. On the SATs...

You still get 400 points for fogging a mirror. Right?

FSU_Ben · 11 months ago

Yeah, I wasn't being entirely flattering about Timbo. You might catch a few other things in my description as well :P

gatorhippy · 10 months ago

He took the SAT when he was 13...

gatorhippy · 10 months ago

I tell ya what, Benny...

Why don't you whip us up a post breaking down all these "claimed" facts and backing them all up with schedule breakdowns and statistical data and forward it over to K-Hue...

It will certainly give you plenty of space to breakdown and actually present a followable argument...

BTW - I already booted you square in the nuts over the Tebow/Ward comparison here...

And don't forget...

You can add a second MNC ring to that now...

;-]

FSU_Ben · 10 months ago

I didn't respond to your earlier post because it was so old I thought you wouldn't bother look. You should know Ward hasn't had nearly the time to post numbers Tebow has. He really started one year. He played at FSU for two (which you knew). He never played any crap teams either to rack up stats on (citadel, western carolina, troy, ucf are all well below teams he played, especially in the given years played none were and two still aren't div 1-A teams when he played). Check our schedules you will find none of those teams only (current) BCS his national championship year (Kansas, Nebraska, Notre Dame, Miami, Florida are the ooc including bowl). The year prior we did drop 10 touchdowns on a two win Tulane but everyone else was BCS (or rather is currently). You well know there were no freshman, sophomore years for Ward. Ward was also truely talented. There is no way you you can say with a straight face that Tebow isn't the product of Urban Meyer's system. It would only be slight exageration to say 65% of the plays were called draws his heisman year. Where he plowed through the line. That is hardly athletic talent like Ward's evasive runs when a play broke down. Ward was a good quarterback, a great college quarterback. Tebow is a fullback product of a system nearly entirely dependent on a system that allows him to post those numbers you so desperately cling to as proof that he was somehow better than Charlie Ward.

And certainly it is weak to claim you have three national championship winning quarterbacks in two years you must forget Leak was the starter in 2006. Or should we give Branton credit should he bring home a national championship in his senior year (when I think he will start) for two national championships because he was a backup quarterback? Does your system require the backup be apart of some bizzare two quarterback system?

I certainly don't see a boot anywhere near my groin with twisted numbers and the fact he now has two national championships, his and Leaks (leeks?).

How many sports does fat fullback play? My point being he isn't remotely as athletic as Charlie Ward.

Charlie went on, as I am sure you know, to play in the NBA and was drafted by the Brewers and the Yankees as a pitcher (hmm remember making an accuracy comment?). Charlie could have gone to FSU on a Tennis Scholarship which he also played.

Tebow can carry two tacklers 5 yards. I wonder who has more talent.

gatorhippy · 10 months ago

Seriously, bub...

Work it all out with all the numbers, schedules, etc. and send it over to Kev...

You honestly have my curiosoty peaked as to whether your theory holds water...

As far as Ward vs. Tebow...

Ward had two full years to compile his stats as a starter...

His accomplishments do not compare...

Ward was a good...nay...great player in his own right...

But doesn't stack up to Tim...

FSU_Ben · 10 months ago

Amazing you can say that with a straight face knowing ward played one less regular season game and in a conference with no championship game at the time (something "tim" has played in twice in 3 years). He never played teams as weak as the easiest teams Tebow played to rack up stats on. He never played that style of offense that had tebow carring the entire team on his back with designed runs and draws as well as doing fullback duties that most coaches would never have a quarterback do. Considering all of that, Wards numbers are pretty impressive. If you need to see how much a difference there is note that nearly all heisman winners from the 90's are now out of the top 3-5 performers (overall on a team) and have dropped below pretty luke warm players that followed them. All because of one or two games extra.

I am wondering what has your curiousity peaked? I don't mind writing up all the research in an email if you specifiy what but I don't want to guess at the wrong thing and do all the work for nothing.

gatorhippy · 10 months ago

Moving to the bottom of the page...

TampaGator · 11 months ago

"...Would you and tampagator be argueing [sic] this hard against them if it weren't a year Florida went to the national championship game?..."

What tipped you off there, rocket boy? the handle? My, what brilliant deductive reasoning.....

The arguments are coming in the from of *UF doesn't deserve the cred they got, because Utah outperformed UF v. Bama*

Hence it is a call to UF/SEC Fan to point out the obvious differences:

1. UF sans PERCY HARVIN played a COMPLETE AND HEALTHY bama team; Utah played a Bama team without its ALL WORLD LEFT/BLINDSIDE tackle, Andre Smith, and starting guard;

2. Bama played UF for a SEC CHAMPIONSHIP and a chance at a NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP (can you say MOTIVATION???); bama played Utah for the right to be declared sugar bowl champ (yawn).

3. Bama played against UF and H-man Tim Tebow (more motivation); vs. Utah, one year removed from UGA kicking an undefeated Hawaii's ass with ease (expectations).

4. Utah caught Bama sleeping due to above; result was 21 points in first 3 drives.

...and for ALL THAT, the differential between Utah and UF versus 2 completely different Bama teams under 2 completely different set of circumstances is......

....a staggering THREE POINTS better.

That's the whole argument that UF is LESS deserving than Utah; because they did better against Bama.

...and compare schedules???? Are you kidding????

UF lost one game to an SEC conference opponent by 1 point. Utah beat the New Mexico Lobos by another staggering 3 points. (FYI: NM Lobos=homecoming fodder; this is the type of team UF brings in for HC and lights up like a pinball machine). That's worse than a respectable loss.

The bottom line though--Utah has the burden of proving that it was more worthy than UF or OU for opp'y to play in NC game. As Tom Blogical would say...

FAIL.

Close, but just not enough.

There will be no split title. The BCS got it right.

What's really funny though, is you calling out Florida Fan--who obviously has a dog in the fight--for what, BIAS????

What's your motivaton in this matter, Benny? Let me spell it out any readers who may have suffered my post this far, since you will surely spin it:

E-N-V-Y.


GO GATORS!!

FSU_Ben · 11 months ago

It isn't Envy you can find me saying here even since the Utah win that Florida is where they belong. I just think Utah proved they deserved a shot too late in the game. I have no right to be envious as long as the team I support isn't even competeting at that level. I am saying UTAH has a right to be envious and deservesa shot to play for the title. I don't want to see a split title it's trash.

Ben Prather · 11 months ago

Personally, I run with my Biases wide open.

It makes my statements to the contrary much more impactful.

Your opinion, as a Texas fan, tommy Trojan's opinion, as an unrepentatent USC fan, and the opinions of several Alabama fans around here carry more significantly more weight than mine, yet we all agree on this point.

Tom_Blogical · 11 months ago

Here's what I have to say about the OSU game before I rant about the National Title topic.

Texas earned the victory. They took advantage of OSU and won the game fair and square. There may be OSU fans that will claim the referees took the game away from OSU...in my passion in the heat of the moment, I'll admit I was bitching about the refs as well. However...both teams have to deal with that and adversity. Texas won the game, they were the better team. And obviously, with 20 seconds left...had the superior coaching staff and players on the field. As much as it pains me to say that.

With all that being said, I still think OSU proved they belong with the elite programs in the nation, and may have shown the Big 12's weakness to the rest of the nation. Utah deserves to be #1, in my book.

Now then, about this claim that they're "#1". There is no way they'll be able to convince anyone they deserve a "split title". They beat OSU by only 3 and Oklahoma by 10. Oklahoma is in the NC Game, and NOBODY thought anything of Ohio State all year long. A majority thought Texas would win by at least double digits, and it didn't happen. It didn't come close to happening. Ohio State exposed the Big 12 and their lack of defense...and really, so did Northwestern against Missouri.

Florida will destroy Oklahoma, if these two games are any indication. If not...then OSU and the rest of the Big 10(11) has been severely underrated for the entire year.

GO BUCKS!!! (And for god's sake, win a freaking big game for once in 2009)

Unbiased · 11 months ago

Tom_Blogical, way to show some class even after a heartbreaking defeat. I wish the PAC-10 had more fans like you!

I agree with you that Texas has no claim for the half-crown. However, I respectfully disagree that no one though "anything of OSU all year long." That is simply not true.

Many people expected Ohio State to finish very higly in the Mythical Polls. Myself included.

However, you and I can differ all day long. Until there is a playoff all arguments are a joke.

Tom_Blogical · 11 months ago

Perhaps you did expect more out of OSU in the middle and the end of the season. However, I've read articles about the Big 10(11) from the media that claim they have no business being in a BCS game, and another which claimed Texas "would beat the daylights out of Ohio State." In my book, a 3 point win with a TD with 16 seconds left on the clock is not "beating the daylights out of OSU".

And we're already getting bombarded with 1-6, even though the Big 10(11) was the underdog in a majority of those games.

Whatever. It was a completely frustrating season. 3 straight losses to 3 elite teams in 2008, coupled with the NC Game losses in 2006 and 2007 is simply not fun at all. 4 out of those 5 games were blowouts. This sucks, to put it mildly.

Unbiased · 11 months ago

Fair enough. But you have no reason to hang your heads. You guys had a good season, you played well until the very last snap, and all college football teams make their schedules at least ten years before they actually happen.

Don't get down on your team, or on the Big Ten (11) conference. Lobby for a playoff! I would love to see Utah playing on Thursday night against the PAC 10 or the Big 10(11).

I dare you to to tell me you wouldnt watch that game!

Tom_Blogical · 11 months ago

Actually...blown out 3 out of 5 games. And no. Right now, I hate college football. "I hate, I hate, I HATE College Football!" (Not said by Dustin Hoffman playing Captain Hook in the movie, Hook.)

Tom_Blogical · 11 months ago

BTW...this blog is the WRONG place to lobby for a playoff. You'll get no support and the advertisers give the BCS too much money.

I'd LOVE to see a playoff, and I personally believe they're sliding towards a playoff, ever so slowly, with the BCS being the first baby step. But playoffs will not be a reality for at least another 20 years.

Tommy_Trojan · 11 months ago

unbiased:

"way to show some class even after a heartbreaking defeat. I wish the PAC-10 had more fans like you"!

Sorry Pal. We just didn't lose any games. We didn't have even one heartbreaking defeat. What can we do?

Ben Prather · 11 months ago

What about Ole Miss vs Texas Tech? Certainly that sadi something about the Big 12 defenses, and their offenses.

Florida is going to roll over Oklahoma.

Tom_Blogical · 11 months ago

Yeah. Missed it.

Bevo_Boy · 11 months ago

I think I should mention people were saying the same thing would happen in the Texas/OSU game, but that turned out to be a great game.

Ben Prather · 11 months ago

Except the Cotton and Fiesta Bowls, among others, show a trend that national perception was in error before the Bowls in a manner that supports the already favored Gators.

Bevo_Boy · 11 months ago

But that's stating the quality of the team based on the rest of the conference, which you are saying is bad to do, at least in Utah's case. Oklahoma dominated almost every game they played in this season, but now they can't hang with Florida because the other teams in the Big XII weren't as impressive in their bowls as expected?

Also, I think it needs to be considered how much this game meant to OSU. They were trying to prove that they belong in big games and play about as well as they could have, so that means Texas isn't as good as we thought?

Ben Prather · 11 months ago

Actually I argue the MWC is VERY undervalued and the BIG 12 south is slightly undervalued.

I will argue that games between top 10 teams and 0.500 teams should be ignored in this discussion, eliminating 1/3 of Utah's conference games and most of the other teams OOC.

The MWC's 6-2 record vs the PAC 10 was chalked up to the PAC 10 being weak. Why was the PAC 10 weak? Because they were 2-6 vs. the MWC.

Well now the PAC 10 and MWC are a combined 7-1 vs the other 9 conferences in bowl games. A major blunder was made here, so how does the MWC's 6-2 vs the PAC 10 look now?

I will conceed Oklahoam's win over TCU is looking significantly stronger than it did at the time, and would become an issue if Oklahoma dominates Florida.

Tom_Blogical · 11 months ago

"They were trying to prove that they belong in big games and play about as well as they could have, so that means Texas isn't as good as we thought?"

The Longhorns are who we thought they were. They ARE who WE THOUGHT they were!!! And we let 'em off the hook.

Seriously. They were. Great game.

Tommy_Trojan · 11 months ago

Bevo Boy:

Texas had much to play for. They had been presumably "shafted" for a shot at a National Title. Colt McCoy had been passed over in the "Hypesman" balloting. Colt McCoy held up his end. Texas should have come out and pummeled Ohio State. The point spread indicated that alot of folks thought that they would. Mack Brown's case would have been solid if that were to have happened. It didn't. Texas struggled with an Ohio State team that got pounded by USC and lost to Penn State who got pounded by USC. Furthermore, it was very apparent that Terrell Pryor has not improved at the QB position all year. He played exactly the same way against USC. The Ohio State coaching staff made serious blunders this year in not leaving Boeckman at QB. Better yet, what would that backfield have been like with Boeckman lining up under center (or in shotgun if you prefer), with Beanie Wells right behind him and Terrell Pryor to his right or left? What if in the shotgun formation, Pryor could have taken a direct snap, and either run it or thrown it? What if Pryor could have gone out on pass patterns? What if Boeckman kept the defenses honest with the ability to throw deep? And, what with all that to worry about, Beanie Wells was handed the ball sometimes? That offense could have been made to be alot more explosive than it was. Robiskie and Small were fine wide receivers. There was just nobody to get them the ball. No, Ohio State had plenty of talent, the coaching staff has handed Texas the game. I'm not discounting that in Texas' favor - it's just that Jim Tressel never seems to be able to come up with anything.

Bevo_Boy · 11 months ago

They did do some of what you said they should, although it would have been hard for them to get Beanie the ball since he was out with a concussion. He did well when he was in, and so were his replacements, for the most part. The thing that struck me as odd is they didn't keep Boeckman on the field after his success.

And I didn't mean that to sound like Texas had nothing to play for, I just thought people were overlooking how much this game meant for that OSU team. They had 28 seniors on the roster and wanted to go out in a way to prevent their legacy being losing all the big games.

Tommy_Trojan · 11 months ago

Bevo_Boy:

There is no doubt that Ohio State played hard. They really did do that. The offensive meandering kept their defense on the field way too much. I thought there were some gallant efforts to get Texas to punt. Then Tressel would simply engineer another three and out. He got outcoached again.

Yes, Boeckman would make a play, and they'd bring Pryor right back in. Texas would go into a run defense and stuff the play. Boeckman would come in and Texas would put on a pass rush and defend for the pass. Excellent telegraphing by the Ohio State staff. It could not have been done any better than that.

While we're all watching this nonsense, I had mentioned that maybe they ought to have Pryor and Boeckman on the field at the same time, and wella it actually happened. Beanie Wells is knocked out and there went that opportunity. But, hey, it wasn't like Ohio State didn't have another running back. They have about five more over there on the bench. No my basic point on this - is that it should have all been concocted throughout the year. It was very clear that Tressel worked some of this stuff up only for Texas. The Ohio State team did not look very sharp in any of it. The whole story was that the Ohio State defense ran out of gas because they were on the field way too long. Alot of that had to do with Colt McCoy. And, another whole lot of it belonged to the Ohio State coaching staff themselves. Otherthan that, taking nothing away from Texas, that is about as hard as I've seen Ohio State play in some time. That was impressive. Too bad their coaches are none too bright.

Jason · 11 months ago

What about Utah vs Alabama? Certainly that said something about SEC defenses and their offenses.

AUtigerman · 11 months ago

Tom

You forgot to mention Ole Miss absolutely beat down Texas Tech. Futher proving the lack of D in the Big 12.

Tom_Blogical · 11 months ago

Yeah. Missed it.

Jason · 11 months ago

Ole Miss's defense gave up 469 yards and 4TDs. They had 2 INTs, 1 of which was returned for a TD.

Texas Tech gave up 515 yards and 5TDs. They had 1 INT returned for a TD and forced 2 Fumbles.

I actually watched the game and didn't see much defense from either team.

AUtigerman · 11 months ago

Texas Tech Big 12 #1 (tie)was actually held under there season average for points and yardage.
While allowing Ole Miss the #4 team in the SEC to rack up 150 yards more then there average and 17 points more then there average.

Unbiased · 11 months ago

p.s.- when I said "I wish the PAC-10 had more fans like you! " I meant I wish the PAC-10 had ANY fans like you. I of course know that Ohio State is in the BT.

Tom_Blogical · 11 months ago

That's OK, I knew what you meant.

Ben Prather · 11 months ago

I am going to have to stand up for The Mayor, our local Oregon fan.

TheMayor · 11 months ago

Thanks Ben

Tom_Blogical · 11 months ago

FWIW...I didn't agree with that sentiment, but I knew what he meant.

TheMayor · 11 months ago

I am pretty damn sure that my Bachelors Degree from 1977 is from the University of Oregon, not from The Pac-10 Conference.

Conference arguments are futile (I learned that here three years ago) but they are fun to watch.

Tom_Blogical · 11 months ago

Yep.

War_Eagle_Atlanta · 11 months ago

But wasn't it Oregon Territory way back then?

TheMayor · 11 months ago

Ouch!

Tommy_Trojan · 11 months ago

unbiased:

Man, you sound pretty biased to me.

Regan · 11 months ago

Texas lost to Texas Tech. I like the 'Horns, but they gave up their claims right then and there and threw their chances to the Winds of Fate.

Because Texas did not get a chance to play in the Big 12 Title Game, they missed out on the chance to play in the NCG. This is NOT because of the BCS - it is because of the Big 12's rules regarding tiebreakers.

If the Big 12 used the SEC's tiebreakers, they would have taken the head-to-head result of the higher two ranked teams. So here's the blame rank:

1) Blame the loss to Texas Tech.
2) Blame the Big 12's rules.
3) Blame anyone else.

If you don't win your conference (or division), I don't even want to hear it.

WIN or GO HOME.

Unbiased · 11 months ago

Regan,
Fine. Explain to me what those kids from Utah could have done differently this year to win the Mythical Half Crown ("MHC", if you want to be trendy) besides what those kids did:

1. They beat every motherloving team they played
2. They beat five bowl teams
3. The beat Alabama with great fury
4. They won every game

Give the half crown to Utah.
Please.

(I don't even like Utah!)

Ben Prather · 11 months ago

You don't know Regan. He likes a limited playoff with only conference champions.

He would love to see Utah get their chance, they won their conference. He likes everyone in orange, which is definately not Utah.

Regan · 11 months ago

That orange thing is a completely bizarre coincidence, but I'm having to go with it. :-)

Go Syracuse!

Regan · 11 months ago

As far as Utah goes, I can deal with that.

Tom_Blogical · 11 months ago

"WIN or GO HOME."

Somebody told Texas that. They forgot to give that message to Oklahoma and Florida, though. Yes, I get the Big 12 rules, but the BCS rankings still failed them. And so did the idiotic Big 12 rules.

BCS = FAIL.

Regan · 11 months ago

OU and FLA don't matter. Winds of Fate.

Fate could have smiled upon Texas with an OU loss somewhere else along the road. It did not.

If I don't wear a seat belt, that's throwing my life to the Winds of Fate. If I get killed and the seat belt could have saved me, who do I blame? Hint: it's not the BCS...

Tom_Blogical · 11 months ago

"If I get killed and the seat belt could have saved me, who do I blame? Hint: it's not the BCS..."

Really? You sure about that, because you are a college football fan. I got news for you. If you get killed and the seat belt could've saved you, it ain't "Winds of Fate" that killed you. It's you.

Let's do away with the hinting around, because now we're back where we started with the argument, meaning it's up to each team, as you're implying. Which means we're back to the same crummy Big 12 rules which are not decided by "Winds of Fate", they are under direct control by man. Since we're back to the beginning, then we're back to the same scenario and hence, my original statement. Let's bleed the advertising money dry, and tamp the "Winds of Fate" way down and institute a playoff.

BCS = FAIL.

1Tomcat · 11 months ago

Hey Tom great game.Tressel did as I expected and the boys played hard- I didnt see any weakness whatso ever. When you have the parity that exist today in CFB #3 vs #10= great game.Yalls loss to USC was without Pryor & Wells and I understand that the PSU game was real close.The Buckeyes will do real well in the future and Pryor reminds me of Griffin from BU or our former QB V.Y. That kid is gonna win some games with his speed and athletic ability. The system that determines champions is flawed, Utah is undefeated and there are no teams from BCS conferences that are undefeated.Oklahoma lost to Texas by ten points and even if they beat Fla-unlikely they will not be champions in my eyes because Texas already proved that they deserved a shot at the title and some sort of playoffs would give teams like Utah,USC & Texas a chance to win it on the field instead of the current system that promotes running up the score on opponents to get media style points and impress voters.
The Longhorns are #1 in the B-12 and just won 5 straight bowl games 3 of which were BCS games, beat Oklahoma 3 outa the last 4. Four of Texas opponents won their bowl games FAU,Rice,Missu and KU- They whooped Arkansas 52-10 the same team that beat LSU. They faced 6 ranked opponents and only lost one on the road by 3 points and were one dropped INT or missed tackle away from being undefeated.
Hookem-Horns 12-1
whoever wins in Miami- dosent matter because we aint played Fla and done beat OU

Tom_Blogical · 11 months ago

Utah is the only team that won every game on their schedule. Most importantly, their last game; a BCS bowl beat down on Alabama.

Ben Prather · 11 months ago

Technically, if the Big 12 used the SEC rules the three way tie still would have fallen to the BCS standings.

They use the BCS standings differently, allowing a team within 5 rankings of the top team to win if they won head to head. This would have eliminated Texas Tech and given Texas the head to head win.

Jason · 11 months ago

And technically, if the Big 12 used the NFL tiebreaker rules, Oklahoma would still have gone to the Big 12 championship.

http://www.nfl.com/standings/tiebreakingprocedures

We can all cherrypick rules that favor our team.

Ben Prather · 11 months ago

I'll stick with undefeated.

Jason · 11 months ago

Congrats on a great season!

TampaGator · 11 months ago

Right on.

Not much else to add other than if you are going to stake a claim for the NC on dubious grounds--at least beat the crap out of your bowl opponent--like USC and Utah did. Hell, especially when we're talking about OSU--I mean, isn't that what you're supposed to do to OSU in a big game? USC did it this year...LSU last year...UF in '06....

Actually, I thought it was rather brazen of big Mack to stake his claim when, frankly, humility was in order--as in "...thank the good Lord we were able to pull that one out of our [expletive deleted]... thank the Lord we didn't have to face USC/SEC Champ/even Utah..."

Whatever. I'm sure we're not the only ones who were simultaneously amused and annoyed by the claim...


GO GATORS!!

War_Eagle_Atlanta · 11 months ago

Bravo!!!

Tom_Blogical · 11 months ago

Disqus sucks. Again.

GeauxTigers0107 · 11 months ago

If you can't win your own conference, you shouldn't even have a micorphone in your face when the talk is NC. Period.

Utah FTW


Geaux Tigers
Geaux SEC

Kevin @ Fanblogs · 11 months ago

When you look at the course of the entire season and resumes, I think the showing last night did not do enough to put Texas over the top. They didn't do anything that seperated them from the pack to PROVE that they are the best one-loss team.

I will wait until Thursday night to pass judgement, but I think the only teams with a dog in the hunt are Utah and maybe USC. I'm not inclined to give a split title to Utah at this point. I don't think you can make a decision on any of this until you see what happens Thursday night. If either team dominates, then I think the split talk is out the window.

thebuckstopshere · 11 months ago

Looks like we agree, (see below) for the most part. I would have responded to your post but I probably started commenting at the same time you did. I just became distracted and didn't post until 42 mins later.

Ben Prather · 11 months ago

I can tell you what my opinion will be after thursday night:

If Oklahoma dominates Florida, Oklahoma is #1. PERIOD.
Any other case and Florida and Utah should have a split title.

TampaGator · 11 months ago

Really?

Because Utah caught a depleted Bama team with not much to play for, sleeping, and managed to beat them by a full 3 points better than UF did?

A Bama team that obviously looked right past Utah, fashioning themselves last year's UGA, and Utah this year's Hawaii--a mere 3 points better than UF did--without PERCY HARVIN--against a Bama team with a complete roster, and EVERYTHING ON THE LINE?

Burden of proof was on Utah; a mere 3 point differential between Utah's win over Bama and UF's---with so many circumstances mitigating in favor of UF--not enough.

Not conviced; no sale. But "A" for effort.

Winner of OU--UF is outright champ. BCS got it right this time.


GO GATORS!!

Ben Prather · 11 months ago

Utah came out and put it to Alabama. Maybe the win was only a three points difference, but do you dare to measure the margin by minutes in the lead?

Alabama had a chance to wake up and be the better team late in the game, like Florida did in the SEC championship game. When they started to make a move and broght the game close with a punt return in the third, Utah tightened back up and put them away.

I am sure we will never convinvce each other. I am curious what your coach would has to say about it all. Unlike Saban, Carrol or Stoops I believe Meyer will be man enough to at least acknowledge Utah's beef has some merit.

OU_Ron · 11 months ago

How do you know what Saban,Carrol or Stoops would say...

Ben Prather · 11 months ago

Saban has had an opportunity to make a stand, but failed to. I admit the others would read better if they were replaced with Brown.

TampaGator · 11 months ago

"....do you dare to measure the margin by minutes in the lead?..."

Sure, as long as we also measure the stakes: SEC Championship....chance at National Championship...vs. Sugar Bowl championship....

...the prestige of beating the mighty Gators, vs. well....beating utah.

How about expectations?

UF--with H-man Tebow vs. '07 Hawaii 'er....Utah.

Roster changes: UF minus Percy Harvin v. Bama at 100%; Utah v. Bama without all-world LEFT (blindside) tackle, Andre Smith, and starting O/Guard....

...and as you pointed out, Utah came out and looked like world beaters (bama was asleep) in first 3 drives; after a depleted bama team wakes up, then...not so much.

In stark contrast, UF beat a complete bama team down, over the duration of the game. No gimmickry or trickery; no catching anyone un-awares...nope; just good ol' fashioned outlasting the other team, and beating them down, rather than sneaking past 'em.

Again, in context, with Utah having the burden of proving it was much more worthy than UF--all I see is 3 points better, and OK, Utah led for more of its game.

Everything else mitigates in UF's favor.


GO GATORS!!

Mr2Bits · 11 months ago

Maybe the win was only a three points difference, but do you dare to measure the margin by minutes in the lead?

Actually, if you want numbers,
UF was down by a field goal at the end of the 1st quarter for 7 minutes and 23 seconds.
UF trailed by a field goal for 5 minutes and 43 seconds. Pretty sure UF lead all but the end of the third quarter so the time is differential is marginal. So in total UF trailed Bama about 13 minutes out of 60 in the game. Utah never trailed.

On a side note, I’m not quite sure where this “HUGE COMEBACK WIN” came from everyone keeps talking about in the UF/Bama game. The gators went down by a field goal, responded with a touchdown and never looked back in the forth. UF also did not have the advantage of Bama’s offense crumbling and turning the ball over early and often. The 500 passes JPW was heaving could put them in the hole to any team. I’d also like to add that UF played without its best play-maker outside of Tebow and Utah had the luxury of beating up on a Bama O-line missing it's number one draft pick.

I know I’m speaking on deaf ears but the truth hurts but a 3 point difference in a win doesn't claim dominance on any part.

Wardboy3 · 11 months ago

I do agree about the time. I figure ALA lead for about 12 min...not including the amount it was tied...I know FLA scored early in 4th to take lead & never looked back. I also do not understand the "HUGE COMEBACK".

But I have to disagree about some of your statements. JPW passed 30 times against UTAH...25 against FLA. Not including the drop backs & then getting sacked. But the more passes has to be attributed to 2 things...one being down by 21pts early & also the run game not producing. ALA averaged 0.9/rush against UTAH 33 carries for 31 yds. ALA averaged 4.1/rush against FLA 33 carries for 161 yds.

You can say FLA did not have the advantage of Bama’s offense turning the ball over early and often...but that has to be credit given to UTAH for creating those turnovers.

You can blame all the pressure UTAH got on Smith being out but some of UTAH's pressure came up the middle between two regular starters (center & RG). I also remember some sacks/pressure coming from the left with the ALA LT being fully engage with a defender & the back missing the block. I believe if you watched closely you will see not all can be blamed on one missing LT.

Mr2Bits · 11 months ago

My comments about JPW and his 500 passes were the old grade school game where you have the thrower, all the catchers at one end and you scream out a point value before heaving the ball in the air for any and all to catch.

I don't blame ALL the pressure on the lack of starters but it definitely didn't help their pass or run game. I just find it hard to believe that they go all year with minimal pressure, a dominant running game then all of a sudden they lose their dominant O-line players and they give up more sacks than they have ever seen. Juts not coincidental.

Wardboy3 · 11 months ago

So was it coincidental that tOSU lost the 2007 BCS National Championship Game after losing Ted Ginn, JR after the opening kickoff? With Ted Ginn in the game all year tOSU averaged 36 pts/game & 410/yds/game. With Ginn in the game against FLA tOSU scored 7pts in 16 seconds. Without Ted Ginn against FLA tOSU scored 7pts for the final 59 minutes and 44 seconds and only had 82/yds of offense. Maybe thats "just not coincidental".

Mr2Bits · 11 months ago

Sure, if Ginn could have scored 4 touchdown on our defense or take back 4 kickoffs then it may have been a game. However, when your O-line is dismantled it's a little different than replacing a wide-out(see Harvin example). Could you imagine what the score would have been if Harvin played against Bama?

On a side note about Ginn and football these days, I'm really starting to hate the whole jump in the air and bump into whatever player is closest. It really annoys the piss out of me.The whole offense turns into jumping jacks after a TD. I get confused who the players and cheerleaders are. Whatever happened to a pose and high five?

thebuckstopshere · 11 months ago

I think this is a non-issue, if anyone has a chance at the AP title we all know who that would be, *cough* Utah *cough, cough*. I would even say in the mind of most voters USC would have more of a legitimate argument than Texas for the next spot on the totem pole. The problem for the longhorns is, it's not that people don't respect Texas but rather they don't respect Ohio State. Of course if either Oklahoma or Florida wins big I think that ends anyone's possibility of a split.

OU_Ron · 11 months ago

I feel a Orange Bowl fly over coming on............

thebuckstopshere · 11 months ago

Slightly off topic here, but in the last few threads and as always we've had a lot of playoff talk. My main beef with some people pushing for a playoff is it seems like there motives are a little selfish. In the sense, that most arguments seem to be on the "fans" behalf. You hear the phrase "we need a playoff" and then the explanation of why. Who is "we"? We the fans who I guess with all the uncertainties in life can't deal with not having a definitive number one team at the end of the season as if that was what it's all about? No I guess the majority of us can't deal with not having that kind of closure, sad. Or when the media states their case, how many arguments are on behalf of what's best for the student athlete? No, they are only interested in pandering to the majority. I wonder why?

I'm not saying playoffs are a bad idea or the BCS is a good system. I'm saying what ever argument is made; it can't be from that self serving individual in us all. Say what you want about the bowls, but you can't say that at least half the teams that played in the post season didn't go out on a high note. How many winners are there at the end of a playoff??????????

JaredIsKing · 11 months ago

The fans say "we" because 1) it's a form of identity and 2) they pay for the merchandise, tickets, tv viewings, scholarships that support the team and its players. They have every right to say "we" as long as they realize that they are not doing any of the physical work.

thebuckstopshere · 11 months ago

I never said "we" as in the fans don't have a right to voice an opinion on a game we all love. I'm saying in my opinion ultimately the game is about the athletes and not anyone else. I haven't heard too many reasons about why a playoff is better for the athlete, be there one or not.

You talk about a form of identity and the power fans wield by funding these programs. Well it seams like if the true interest of the fans were to incorporate a playoff then the path to such a reality would be very simple, Boycott until you get what you want. I don't see any of that going on, so you have to ask yourself what do fans care about more than imposing there collective will?

Mr2Bits · 11 months ago

We....so what position do you play?

Ben Prather · 11 months ago

Fan / Cheerleader Follower / Merchandise Buyer / TV ad watcher

Tom_Blogical · 11 months ago

I can't speak for thebuckstopshere, but I play Armchair QB. You?

Ramblin' Gator · 11 months ago

Perhaps it is self-serving as you suggest, but my interest in having a playoff system is driven by a sense of injustice.

Is it fair that every other NCAA sport - including the lower football divisions - are decided by playoff and FBS is not?

Is it fair that Utah does not have a title shot? What about Texas?

Is it fair that two conferences (Pac-10 and Big10++), four bowls (BCS) and one team (ND) have so much influence over the FBS that they can block a playoff for the rest of the conferences, teams, and players?

thebuckstopshere · 11 months ago

You make a good argument, fair is definitely a good thing but it's not always the most important thing. Is being unique a good thing? Are you a big fan of the regular season in every other NCAA sport? Look if you're driven by a sense of injustice I ask for whom? Utah? You think those kids are feeling down? I don't, a great season and a great win on a national stage, I doubt too many of them are really feeling cheated. Even if a few teams couldn’t get over the fact that the sports world didn't declare them number one or give them a shot to be, what would you suggest be done to fix that? I'm up for anything that doesn't take away from a good experience for a lot of student athletes that worked hard all season and got to finish on a high note with the spotlight on them. In a fair quest to be number one through the means of a playoff, I think it would actually be unfair to a lot of teams and a lot of athletes who if they made the post season would get sent home losers. A play off would glorify and celebrate one team out of many. The bowls glorify and celebrate the sport. Why do we have such a infatuation with being number one?

Ramblin' Gator · 11 months ago

Look if you're driven by a sense of injustice I ask for whom? Utah? You think those kids are feeling down?

Maybe, maybe not. Though I can confirm that the players of both Texas and USC are feeling cheated right now.

Also, the best argument I've heard against the BCS (or its predecessors) is this: if the BCS is so great, why aren't other sports switching to this format?

FWIW, I believe the desire to be the best at everything is a quality that makes this country great. Having traveled through much of the world, I've seen how the "passing grade" mentality limits the potential of many cultures. A better topic for a different blog (sorry).

thebuckstopshere · 11 months ago

I don't want to sound like I disagree with striving for excellence by any means. But we should chose wisely how we measure and acknowledge the best. And remember who such acknowledgement serves.

I am interested on how you can confirm the disappointment of some USC and Texas players?

Ramblin' Gator · 11 months ago

In fairness, I've gotten my information third or forth-hand from colleagues of mine, including the mother of one of the USC players. But do you honestly doubt that they are disappointed? USC and Texas have the same record as the two teams competing for the NC and Texas defeated one of them. How could they NOT be disappointed.

In fairness to me, how do you know that the Utah players are not disappointed? It certainly seems like they should be as they've earned the right to make a claim, IMO.

thebuckstopshere · 11 months ago

I didn't mean to sound snide in asking that question like you couldn’t back it up. I was really interested in some inside info that you might have. But to answer your question about the Utah players, I don’t know. But I never said I did, it's of my opinion that they are probably feeling good about their season and where they ended up.

So in fairness, it's not fair to compare both statements as mine was merely an opinion and yours based in some 3rd person factuality.

Ramblin' Gator · 11 months ago

Okay, but you may want to consider the possibility that the Utes can be simultaneously pleased with their impressive victory AND disappointed in a bowl system that relegates them to second-tier status without regard for their accomplishments. Besides, I still consider this to be an injustice even if the players aren't disappointed.

thebuckstopshere · 11 months ago

see my post below............

Tommy_Trojan · 11 months ago

thebuckstopshere:

The USC senior class was certainly disappointed. Counting the redshirt seniors and true seniors, the record was 46-6 in the past four years, and that group did not win a National Championship. They had one shot in 2005, while these players were all freshmen, and it didn't happen. They never got another shot. Yes, they were very much disappointed to be in the Rose Bowl game.

thebuckstopshere · 11 months ago

The Buckeyes seniors ended up with similar disappointment under similar settings. But I still wouldn't trade the acknowledgement and rewarding of many teams. For one teams perceived praiseworthiness.

thebuckstopshere · 11 months ago

Oh and I don't have an answer to your question involving other sports and the BCS format. I'm not advocating for the BCS, but after watching most of the bowls I realized something. I saw players including seniors who have sacrificed their bodies for 4+ years, fans of teams who struggled through out the year, and coaches on the hot seat all celebrate a bowl win. And how disappointing it would be for all but one team at the end of the season if we had a playoff system? So any new system in my view should not take away from handing out acknowledgement of success to a good amount of teams. Those players, coaches, and fans deserve that acknowledgement for all the sacrifices made throughout the regular season. But playoff proponents I guess feel that dignity should only be entitled to one team.

Ben Prather · 11 months ago

Utah's goals before the season:

1) Win the MWC
2) 10+ wins
3) Win a Bowl game

Utah players exceeded all expectations on all counts. The Utah nation is high as a kite. Did we have the best team? Maybe not, but we should have had a shot. No one can argue that.

We will take our money and come back in a few years. Again.

thebuckstopshere · 11 months ago

Not saying Utah doesn't deserve a shot. I'm just saying I woudln't swap a system that rewards and acknowledges a good portion of teams, for one that only rewards the team that made it through a playoff. College Football is more than figuring out who number one is.

A playoff isn't even the best format for figuring out what team is the best anyways, at least in my opinion. Any team can get hot at the right time or a good team have some key injuries, making it through a playoff involves a lot of luck. Any team can line up and beat any other team under the right circumstances. So unless your playoff would have each team play a three game series, I don't see how a perceived underdog couldn't run the table and the end result be just as controversial as it is now. Look at the Giants Patriots last year……

Wardboy3 · 11 months ago

"In a fair quest to be number one through the means of a playoff, I think it would actually be unfair to a lot of teams and a lot of athletes who if they made the post season would get sent home losers"

Sent home losers? That is they way they do it in high school. Ya, know, playoffs...crown a state champ. That is also how it would happen if they were able to go on to the next level.

The going home losers argurement is weak.

thebuckstopshere · 11 months ago

What I meant by saying "sent home losers" was that it would be a disappointing end to a season. You've informed me that they have playoffs at the high school level what point were you making to the contrary of what I have stated?

"go on to the next level"

There is no level of student athlete beyond college. If a player goes pro they become an employee and will play in the system that their employers decide is most profitable, period.

But I am happy only one part of my post was perceived as a "weak argument" by you. And I take by your lack of acknowledgement that you concur with the rest. I can live with that.........

1Tomcat · 11 months ago

Good Post
Hookem-Horns 5 straight bowl wins OU ???

OU_Ron · 11 months ago

We've only figured out how to get to the BIG one's, haven't figured out how to win em.........yet

Ben Prather · 11 months ago

Side note...

I was just reminded of one little fact. While at Utah, Meyer had the game scheduled with Texas THIS YEAR cancelled and it was replaced with a game vs Weber State. How big is that now?

Meyer is a genious, and a master of foreplanning.

thebuckstopshere · 11 months ago

Maybe not, a win over Texas probably puts you in the title game.

The_Observer · 11 months ago

That's not genious, that's the definition of why you are on the outside looking in and not the other way around. Schedule Texas and win...well you might be taken a little more seriously and have a few more people seriously thinking of Utah as deserving an NC.

FanoftheGame · 11 months ago

Hats off to OSU and UT for providing us with an entertaining Bowl Game. There should be no question now as to how great the horns actually are..............Not very. Not to say they aren't a real good team, but I saw nothing that resembled greatness from a team standpoint in the Fiesta Bowl. It was a competitive matchup between two pretty even teams that made for a great football game. I don't think Mack is stupid enough to think he's gonna get a share of the MNC. But I do think he will lobby to sway voters to keep the horns in the top 5, which I'm not sure they earned last night.

Hotty_Toddy · 11 months ago

Texas got shafted.

But Utah is the only team that deserves the right to a split NT. Hands down.

War_Eagle_Atlanta · 11 months ago

Hypotheticals: How would Utah have fared if they had played a Big 12 south or SEC east schedule? You have to answer that before you split your vote...

Don't fret, however. At least 3-5 MNC selectors will choose Utah as their champ this year, just not the two that count. Unfortunately, only the Utes' Sugar Bowl opponent would have the gall to throw a banner up for something that weak...

Ben Prather · 11 months ago

SEC East:
I know Utah can beat Ole Miss. Taking off my homer goggles I can see that Florida provides challenges Utah still has not answered this year. I ask you who in the SEC West would have given Florida a better game than Utah in the SEC championship game?

Big 12 South
The nepotism that lead to the crowning of the Big 12 south this year has been exposed by the bowls thus far. Amazing offensive numbers that fell to normal levels show these teams to be offesively strong but defensively questionable. The only solid performance against a proven defense was Oklahoma's win over TCU.

Unlike TCU, Utah can score points.

PAC 10
I made the mistake of jumping on the PAC 10 is down bandwagon. What is the primary evidence? 2-6 vs. the MWC. My BCS envy caught the best of me.

Now the PAC 10 and MWC are a combined 7-1 when playing other conferences in bowl games, throwing out the Vegas Bowl where they played each other. Two BCS wins and TCU from the MWC doing what Alabama from the SEC could not stare us in the face. TCU put an undefeated non BCS team's claim's to rest.

Maybe we missed something. Certanly the MWC's 6-2 record against the PAC 10 holds much more weight now. Maybe the harris voters need to watch the games, several have admitted that the Sugar Bowl was the first time all season they had watched Utah play, and they also admit they were wrong about Utah.

Final note
Maybe we get a loss in the SEC East or SEC South, but then again didn't all teams that played in those conferences?

Maybe we would have had two or three losses and the issue would have been settled, but when did Utah turn down an invitation to one of these leagues?

If we were in the Big East how would we have done? Where would West Virginia be if they were undefeated?

TampaGator · 11 months ago

Too simplistic.

Only in hypothetical world, do you get the luxury of playing these games without factoring in the effect of playing them consecutively. I have said and/or posted it a thousand times--it's one thing to beat the occasional SEC team; it's a whole different animal, to play a SEC schedule. The wear & tear of playing the games consecutively makes ALL the difference. We've been clamoring about this for decades, espcially with cane Fan and FSU Fan. Behold their futility, since the best of the BE merged into the ACC.

Utah was the unwitting beneficiary of a piss poor showing by Hawaii last year. Utah snuck one past a sleeping bama; your next 7 opponents would dissect that film ad naseaum, and they would be expecting a great team--and reacting accordingly.

In other words, that probably wouldn't happent for 8 straight games....hypothetically speaking, of course.


GO GATORS!!

Tommy_Trojan · 11 months ago

TampaGator:

This theory is probably correct - but simply cannot be proven. Once again, your using your prejudices, to make a statement that Utah could not handle the rigors of an SEC schedule. Let me remind you of something - those are not all great teams in the SEC there. I would say that Florida, Georgia, Alabama, LSU and Mississippi could probably cause you to take on some injuries. The rest are just average teams at best.

Utah beat Michigan, Oregon State, TCU, BYU and Alabama and survived. Those five schools have some massive players. What other teams not listed above from the SEC would pound Utah back into oblivion? Do you really think that Mississippi State, Kentucky, Vanderbilt, Tennessee, Arkansas, Auburn or South Carolina could have put any kinda beatdown on Utah - even if they played all these teams? I don't see much difference between these schools and Air Force, Colorado State, New Mexico or even Wyoming. Do you think Mississippi State is better than Wyoming? I'm not too sure. Do you really think that Auburn is better than Air Force? I don't. How bout Tennessee? Could they beat New Mexico? I wonder. I really can't understand where this rigorous onslaught is gonna come from.

TampaGator · 11 months ago

Hence the "...hypothetically speaking...". You can't discount my factoring in for hypothetical "wear and tear," without discounting any hypotheticals that fails to factor in for "wear & tear". That was the point.

Come on now...keep up...


GO GATORS!!

Bevo_Boy · 11 months ago

"but when did Utah turn down an invitation to one of these leagues?"

You actually gave us an example of when Utah turned down an invitation to play Texas, and it was even for this year. It may have been the old head coach, but you said it was a good thing that they didn't have to play Texas...

Ben Prather · 11 months ago

I was suggesting it was a good by Meyer for his current spot at Florida...

Sorry if I was not clear.

Bevo_Boy · 11 months ago

Oh, that makes a lot more sense lol

War_Eagle_Atlanta · 11 months ago

What TG said...

Isolated games are one thing, the 8-game conference schedule is another.

We're seeing it here lately. Non-BCS schools get into BCS games and basically have that one game to get up for, while their opponent is all depressed because they're not playing in the CG.

I'm convinced that Utah is an excellent team, and although they played ranked teams this season, their path was easier than a lot of the other BCS schools', I hate to say.

But getting back to the original question, does Texas have any claim to a split title? Being that they failed to advance to and win their conf. CG, I say no. No, no, no.

Tommy_Trojan · 11 months ago

Ben:

Sagarin's final ratings will factor in all the bowl games. It will be very interesting, as both MWC and PAC 10 teams were already ranked highly, and will most certainly gain a great surge after all is said and done. Utah's wins over Oregon State and Alabama will do much. Southern Cal could top the charts in the end - although Florida may hold that lead. All Big 12 teams will dip as will the ACC and Big 10 schools. The MWC and PAC 10 teams will rule the Top 25 - that is for sure. Not by the voters though. That prejudice will never end.

TampaGator · 11 months ago

I saw something last night I had not seen ALL SEASON LONG--

...dirt...

....on Colt McCoy's jersey.


GO GATORS!!

Tom_Blogical · 11 months ago

I really wish there was more dirt added to his jersey with 20 seconds to go in the 4th quarter.

War_Eagle_Atlanta · 11 months ago

Did they show his mama up in the stands as usual, too? I must have missed that. She ain't a half bad looking woman...

Tommy_Trojan · 11 months ago

TampaGator:

I'm pretty sure that Sam Bradford, is gonna look like he just got done "mud whompin", just after the game with Florida. I'll be real surprised if we can even recognize him.

FanoftheGame · 11 months ago

Great point WEA.....................
Based on what we know, Utah ran the table in what we all view to be a weaker non-bcs conference. Bama also ran the table in the SEC until they lost to UF in the close Conference Championship game that Bama was very much in for 4 quarters.
Then ther was the Sugar Bowl that was supposed to vallidate the skeptics opinions that Utah was just a decent team that benefitted from playing in a much weaker conference than the tide. What ocurred inthe Sugar Bowl was a dominating performance by the Utes that has those same skeptics scratching their heads and looking for any excuse they can come up with to playdown what Utah has accomplished this season.
To answer your question based on the facts, it appears as though the Utes would've been playing Florida in a Conferece Championship game had Utah been in the SEC this year.

AUtigerman · 11 months ago

WEA

You just had to stir the pot didnt you.
Its funny to me, this year its the Florida fans talking about how great the system is.

Well its a horrible system that no one really knows how to fix. And regardless of what any fan thinks, no team should ever be crowned a champion based on a computer score unless your playing Nintendo. Is that what NC stands for? Nintendo Champions.

Tom_Blogical · 11 months ago

NC = Nintendo Champions.
NC = National Chicanery.
NC = National Canard.
NC = National Calamity.
NC = National Catastrophe.

Unless of course, it's your (all of us fit here) favorite team that wins it. :-)

Anyone else want to add more to that list?

Ramblin' Gator · 11 months ago

Notoriously Cheating?

Tom_Blogical · 11 months ago

LOL! And I forgot an obvious one...

NC = Not Champions.

WEA...please join in or I'll feel guilty for hijacking your thread. :-)

War_Eagle_Atlanta · 11 months ago

I plead NC--nolo contendere...

Ben Prather · 11 months ago

1) Take all teams that are undefeated
2) Take all teams above the first gap of 0.0600 in the BCS standings

Embed a playoffs of these teams, however many their may be, into the BCS bowls, sometimes requiring a plus one and play in games hosted by the higher seeded team.

Kevin @ Fanblogs · 11 months ago

So -- theoretically -- you're willing to leave out a conference champion? Nice.

Ben Prather · 11 months ago

9 of the 11 conference champions got left out this year, including 2 that were undefeated prior to the post season.

Your real point is that a team can get into the top of the standings without being conference champion. If Missouri had beat Oklahoma would anyone rank them higher than Texas? Ok, maybe 5% of the total population.

Who - other than Regan - would have objected to Texas going to the NC system and Missouri going to a BCS Bowl not part of the current cycle?

Kevin @ Fanblogs · 11 months ago

All of the BCS conference champions were represented in the BCS, as well as the MWC champion, for 2008-2009 season.

Yes... my point is that it would be easily concievable that two to three BCS conference champions per year would be excluded from your system.

Tom_Blogical · 11 months ago

I agree with Kevin. Leaving out conference champions in any system is untenable.

Ben Prather · 11 months ago

I did not do away with the BCS bowls, but left tham as they traditionally have been. Award games for the premier teams. The BCS conference champions that do not qualify for the championship system would still have the traditional BCS bowl tie ins.

Kevin @ Fanblogs · 11 months ago

No team is crowned based on the computer. The BCS is decided on the field. To your point, 1/3 of the selection process is computer driven.

This seems to be a pretty even comparison of systems, since yall seem so dead set on change.

The Plus-One w/ Bowl Results would’ve definitely helped in 2001, 2003, 2004, and may have helped in 2006 and 2007, but it would have completely screwed up 1999, 2002, and 2005 and it would’nt (sic) have done any good in 1998 and 2000.

The Plus-One Top 4 would have probably been better than the BCS in 2004. That’s it, one year out of ten. It’s not a good system.

Eight-Team Playoff w/ Conf Champs would have been solid only in 2002, but so was the BCS that year. In one other year (2000) you have three teams vying for two spots, so one is getting left out. In all other years, you have either 4 or 5 teams that would be worthy of an at-large, so you’re gonna be pissing off more people than you’re gonna be making happy. (And I’m not even including the uproar that would occur when a playoff round staged a rematch of a regular season game, which is pretty likely. Or the fact that the non-BCS conferences would demand a spot, thereby leaving just one at-large for those 3-5 worthy teams.)

Eight-Team Playoff w/ BCS Top 8 If you go this route, you’re always going to be leaving a BCS conference champion out - it would’ve happened to every single conference at least once during the last ten years. Most likely you’ll be leaving two out, as well as the random undefeated non-BCS conf champion.

I know you hate the BCS, but there’d be just as much controversy surrounding these setups as well. Somebody is always gonna get screwed - and there’s a good chance that someday it’ll be your team, if it hasn’t happened already. The BCS might be easier to live with if we just accept the reality that no system is even close to perfect every year. All of them would be controversial most of the time.

No system is without flaws. The BCS has been around for ten years and -- ten times in a row -- the teams that played in the title were the #1 and #2 teams. I don't think any other system would have that kind of success.

Ben Prather · 11 months ago

The Plus One fails Utah and USC this year. It would have been Oklahoma, Florida, Texas and Alabama. Having a set number of teams always results in the boundary issue.

NMLSooner · 11 months ago

Here's the answer. http://www.highplainsleader.com/index.php?optio...

Tom_Blogical · 11 months ago

"I don't think any other system would have that kind of success."

LOL! And...the entire article you quoted rates the controversy of teams not getting into the championship game, who are teams among the top 5, as equal to the controversy of teams not getting into a playoff, who would be teams outside the top 5 easily, and the top 10 if done correctly.

Convenient oversight.

:-)

Ben Prather · 11 months ago

Why are you so down on the computers?

Consider the Sugar Bowl.

5 of the 6 BCS computers had Utah over Alabama. The polls were not even close. I have been tracking how each component has been performing at indicating the bowl results, the polls are failing.

While other computers are blowing away the BCS components, the computers are winning this year.

Tom_Blogical · 11 months ago

So, given that coaches aren't supposed to vote for #1 teams, just the #2-25, what will Mack Brown do? If he votes Texas #1, it won't be counted anyway.

GeauxTigers0107 · 11 months ago

NC= "N" "Competence"


Geaux Tigers
Geaux SEC

Tom_Blogical · 11 months ago

Clever. Me likey.

FanoftheGame · 11 months ago

You make a great point Kev. However we must remember that the title games were the #1 and #2 teams as ranked by the BCS. I'm sure there were a number of other polls that had different #1 and #2 teams than the BCS. My own poll this year had USC at #1 and Penn State at #2, so the Rose bowl already decided the NC based on my poll..........just to make a point.

So far we keep drinking the BCS Kool-Aid because they keep serving it up as "Kool-Aid". If they presented it for what it actually is, then I doubt anyone would be happy about drinking BCS Urine.

First and foremost, the BCS was not created to find out who the best team in the country is. It was created soley to make a lot of money for specific conferences and guarantee those conferences the opportunity to continue making this money year after year. The idea of settling the MNC is a marketing tool for the BCS to continue doing what it does. A true playoff system would inevitably reveal how flawed the BCS system is settling the NC.

Tom_Blogical · 11 months ago

"A true playoff system would inevitably reveal how flawed the BCS system is settling the NC."

Amen.

AUtigerman · 11 months ago

One of the terrible things with the current system is that a non BCS conference school cannot win the championship. So i suggest just forget those teams and allow the six BCS conferences to put there champions forward in a playoff.

Utah ,Boise State would have been left out but whats the difference. Obviously they arent going to be invited to the show anyway. Either that or allow for an 8 team playoff with conference champs 6 teams and 2 at large bids non bcs schools.

So this year that would have left out Texas and Ohio State but if you cant win your conference you shouldnt be invited.

Skip1 · 11 months ago

If a non-BCS team could pull it off two years in a row, they would get a shot at the championship. Pollsters would definitely put an undefeated Utah team in the championship game with a similar 2009 resume.

AUtigerman · 11 months ago

Unless you had 2 BCS undefeated teams

FSU_Ben · 11 months ago

Perhaps next year Utah could have a chance but that would be reflective of both prior BCS trips and wins and even then I still doubt it.

Skip1 · 11 months ago

Texas players, coaches, and fans do the sleazy PR thing a little differently than everyone else. Even Pete Carroll is subdued in comparison. UT people are open in their pandering and feel no shame, whether it be Mack Brown's Rose Bowl politicking, the 45-35 airplane (never mind 39-33), or last night's pleas. They are on message 24/7 and use the media platform to perfection. It's quite the spectacle, and I don't feel bad for them at all.

jeffwaib · 11 months ago

right on, if anybody should be 'politicking' it should be usc...i doubt one person can present me with a logical rebuttal to the fact that usc is better than texas...

Ben Prather · 11 months ago

I believe it is fairly clear that the Florida - Oklahoma winner is most likely to be the consensus NC, and Texas will have no part in saying otherwise.

USC had started to get the AP protest lobby going only to have Utah steal their thunder.

Is Utah better? No one can say, but some of us enjoy the twisting of facts to support a cause.

Befor the Sugar Bowl it was talk about USC and Texas having a chance to split the title in the media hype. Then it became USC, Utah and Texas. Now it is Utah and USC.

Tommy_Trojan · 11 months ago

jeffwaib:

USC doesn't need to care. The fact is that Utah beat Oregon State, went unbeaten, and USC lost their one game to Oregon State. In the system that we have - USC has no bone to pick with Utah. Utah is the only team in the country, that I can claim, that has a sound reason to outrank USC. Nobody else really does. So, USC has no claim to a National Title under this system. We clamour for a playoff.

Penn State would have beaten Texas. Penn State had a balanced offense that would have gotten the job done against Texas. If Ohio State could have thrown the ball at all - they would have torn Texas apart. I know that we would completely dismantle that team - even more than what happened to Penn State.

jeffwaib · 11 months ago

I've seen plenty of games, not neccessarily of them, and there apears to be a bit of seperation between the abilitities of some of these qb's....sanchex was much better than i thought he was...

Skip1 · 11 months ago

Admirable post, TT. I agree that Utah has the best claim of the title game non-participants for a national championship, though I don't think they would emerge victorious from even a 4-team playoff, let alone one with 8 or 16 teams.

War_Eagle_Atlanta · 11 months ago

I could, but I'd have to go back three years ago to the Rose Bowl...

What's the statute of limitations on that argument?

Tommy_Trojan · 11 months ago

WEA:

If you'll recall - there were some real questionable calls. I wouldn't use that as an excuse. That was a real good Texas team. They had a different scheme if you'll recall. I think that the 2005 team had much more talent all over the field. They had tremendous RB's and WR's, not to mention the tremendous legs of Vince Young, plus VY could really throw it. Terrell Pryor looks very much like that very young Mr. Young. In fact, Vince Young, was still just a little bit shaky through his sophmore campaign. I don't think that Pryor is even gonna have it together next year. He better be able to throw it though, or else otherwise, USC is gonna beat them down again at the Horseshoe.

War_Eagle_Atlanta · 11 months ago

The 2005 season CG was the last one that was competitive, too...

2009 in the Horseshoe. Hmmm...

Ben Prather · 11 months ago

I have never heard the AP pollsters appealing in articles to the fans of a school to stop flooding their e-mails.

Did I mention Utah has an EXCELLENT computer science department? SPAM THE SYSTEM!!!

jeffwaib · 11 months ago

where are you going war eagle?

War_Eagle_Atlanta · 11 months ago

Trying to find out when USC was better than Texas...

AUtigerman · 11 months ago

How is it then that every level of college football has a playoff except the highest division.

And it actually works, division one fans have been spoon fed New years day bowl games for so many years they could never except anything else.

I really think it all comes down to tradition. Are fans and schools really willing to give up a big part of college game tradition.

hrposon · 11 months ago

I get a kick out of the BCS propoganda saying that there are 34 bowl winners, over $200M dollars generated for the schools plus the revenue the bowl sites generate. At the end of the message they say that everyone wins.
Sounds like a high priced Tee Ball league. All the kids get a trophy...

thebuckstopshere · 11 months ago

You can look above to see what I think. But I realized that I don't need to state my case because the system I enjoy, for the most part, is already in place. It's the people that can't get past their infatuation that will have to keep raging against the machine. Good luck...............

AUtigerman · 11 months ago

Buckstop

I guess your just an example of what im saying. People dont seem to be willing to give up the tradition of bowl games just to try and prove who really is #1.

I dont discount that philosophy, i just dont completely understand it. If National Champioships are so important (as they seem to be) then wouldnt a fan of a team like Florida for example really want to prove they were the best? I dont believe that any system would ever be perfect but i do believe there could be some improvements without messing with the traditions of college football.

FSU_Ben · 11 months ago

I don't think we have to give up games. Wish we could realize they aren't mutually exclusive. The bowls would move back to what they were most of thier lifespans and be removed from a national championship question. Playoff AND bowls with the first two rounds of the playoff's losers being filtered into games.

War_Eagle_Atlanta · 11 months ago

Yay!!!!!

What's wrong with that? From each according to his ability, to each according to his need...

:-)

WarEagleFan · 11 months ago

WEA you are either a socialist or you listen to too much Sean Hannity.... I hope dearly that it is the latter. War Eagles and libs usually don't mix well

War_Eagle_Atlanta · 11 months ago

I'm just trying to prepare for life under a new administration. It's change we should believe in...

FSU_Ben · 11 months ago

LOL

hrposon · 10 months ago

To quote TB, ROTFL

FSU_Ben · 11 months ago

Not quite but it is a decent analogy. Tee ball all the kids get to bat too. Here we have a system where two kids get to bat and one kid gets the trophy. We just SAY those crappy plaques from the other games are worth a hoot I don't think anyone buys it.

CaneResurrection · 11 months ago

This is the way I look at it. Who would win on a neutral field, Florida or Utah? I honestly believe Florida would win by at least 20. And trust me, I'm not a Florida fan.

Rather than argue who deserves it more, let's ask who's the better team. It'd be hard to argue against Florida.

FSU_Ben · 11 months ago

That is a good way to look at it. I would certainly suspect Florida to be the better team, of course I thought Alabama was too....

I never thought these teams that ended the season undefeated (Boise, Utah, Utah, Hawaii, Boise) deserved a shot. It is 3-2 for them against BCS schools at this point, 2-0 for Utah. How do these programs earn respect? Last I checked the SEC (or any other BCS conference) isn't looking for more teams.

gatorhippy · 10 months ago

Who says I have a straight face...

Tebow out performing Ward puts a smile on any Gator's face...

Hell, in all honesty Ward IMO isn't even the best player in FSU history...

I would reserve that for Deion or Brooks...

Anyhoo...

While I see where you are coming from with your stat defense, you are not accounting for passer rating which takes into account the number of games in its formula and evens it all out...

Ward (who received 4 varsity letters in FB - please learn more about your team if your going to attempt to defend it) doesn't stack up statistically, in titles won or intangibles as I've already pointed out...

Nobody has forgotten about Leak which is precisely why I pointed out that Tebow was a key role player on the 2006 gator championship squad...

As far as your difficulty of schedule theory goes in regards to Chuck vs. Tim...

In 1992, 5 of the eleven teams FSU faced finished with sub-.500 records and in 1993 5 of the 13 teams faced finished in the same manner...

Not to mention at the time, the ACC was no better than any non-BCS conference today...

What I find extremely humorous is your contention that Tebow is a product of "the talent around him" and a product of the sytem while Ward was just simply talented...

So are we to believe that there wasn't talent of equal measure around Ward as there is around Tebow?

Are we also to believe that Ward didn't play in a system and was simply the entire catalyst to Nole sucess in '92 & '93 while Tebow is simply just standing there and the plays are running themselves?

"Product of the system' is perhaps the most ridiculous phrase in assessment you can make...

ALL squads have a system, Ben, and all players are a product of it...

Nobody in organized football just shows up and draws up plays with bottlecaps and glass in the mud ala "Best of Times"...

You don't buck the system and then be successful as a football team...

The system is what makes the team and makes the player on any team...

And in any offensive system, the rest of players are only as good as the guy getting them the ball...

Playing style? Not even a discussion point but a personal preference and won't warrant aknowledgement from me...

I already outlined where the similiarites stopped on the other thread (please go back and reread...again...)

I do find it a little odd that you would mock Tim for his 850 score on the SAT taken at age 13 given Ward couldn't even gain admission to FSU initially having to spend a year at TCC before even making it on campus due to his poor academic performance in the class room...

But as I said before: Whatever keeps your dark little Nole heart warm at night...

As far as my curiosity being peaked...

It's in your UF & SEC schedule asessment...

You stated earlier that you didn't have enough room in the comment section to break it all down and your muddled, unorganized passages and cryptic phrasing is difficult to interpret your exact points...

I'm simply suggesting you put it all together with breakdowns for all 11 conferences and comparisons and contrasts to the SEC and send it over to K-Hue...

It would seemingly be a good thread topic that could possibly foster alot of discussion amongst everyone rather than just you and I...

FSU_Ben · 10 months ago

I qualified my product of a system comment somewhere I think... he accounted for the entire gator offense with just one other player last year (his sophomore season I mean-- and harvin as the one other player). I also stated he pulls fullback duties, something no quarterback at FSU has ever done. It's that that accomplishes his massive running TD numbers and his sheer volume of runs, designed runs, draws etc that we never would have a quarterback perform to such an extent and never have had a quarterback that was used purposely as a fullback on any sort of regular basis. I'm fairly sure I made all of those points. Yes every team has a system but not every system spends an entire season depending entirely on the quarterback 3 out of 5 plays (and harvin for 1 out of 5). I got so everyone in the SEC and at FSU was saying 'STOP TEBOW" because he personally converted so many third downs. We thought, we all thought (judging by various comments by various defensive players over the years of various teams) that this barely two dimensional offense would be easy to stop. Certainly we saw a much different and robust scheme this year so I am speaking of basically the Heisman winning year. I suppose I should have stated Tebow is a product of a specific QB stat favoring system – Urban Meyers QB dominant System but I had hopes you could understand without that specific of a qualification. I can’t even think of another team that puts a QB purposely through the grinder, even the Vicks or any other double threat quarterbacks were never intentionally used as fullbacks on almost every short yardage situation, all of those stats (or at least the attempts) would go to another whole player on most teams.

As to your point concerning me not knowing my own player, the facts you mention (4 varsity letters) are of little import to me and also known, I offer as proof the fact you already brought this up very early in the conversation. Ward started two years at FSU, what he did in what amounts to year 5-6 of high school given the quality of the team certainly shouldn't reflect on anything (the fact he had two more years of practice, which I guess is your point, not withstanding but hardly mattering to the discussion). It is often said that increasing the quality of your competition (or having competition at all) increases the quality of the player and even the ACC you knock is a dramatic increase over not starting at all, Incidentally I speak of the same ACC that won at least one national championship in all three of the last decades including two not from FSU by teams that were members at the time it was won --- so no I am not including Miami, (which non BCS conference did that? I am going to answer for you, none, some BCS conferences also can’t 80’s ACC 1, SEC 1 – 90’s ACC 3, SEC 3 – without Miami).

I would not consider Ward the best player at FSU either. That certainly wasn't what I was claiming even while arguing that Ward and Tebow were similar stories (I thought I was being nice saying that Tebow, who will never play a QB in the NFL most likely and certainly never a good one and probably won't go pro in any sport would have ranked below Ward who did go pro in two sports not including the one he was a college star in).

I apologize for my disjointed rambling though I feel it makes enough sense to anyone >80 IQ to at least get the gist of what I am saying, and you seem to get the gist even if it seems you skip large amounts. It would seem less disjointed or at least you would get everything I am attempting to communicate if you simply read everything. I suspect the comprehension is up to par thus far although there appears to be some gaps I attribute to memory or perhaps skipping reading the post entirely in the first place. I would seek to assure you that reading everything would keep me from having to repeat things (such as two posts back which is 50% repeat material as well as the entire first paragraph of this).

What is this Dark Heart garbage? You are a follower of the Evil Florida Empire of Bandwagoners and Jort wearing Mullet-heads. We are the oppressed! Years of almost entirely groundless insults from jealous Florida and now that we are the less successful program of the two average Florida fans still lack half the class and half the taste of the drunk fat kid in row 17 of the student section at Doak Campbell stadium with a tacky spear painted across his man-breast bearing bare chest! They are such deluded homers they think a team in the SEC has it hard when the toughest non con opponent any of them played was Texas which they lost with a STEEP drop off from there (to who? Clemson? FSU? You Decide). An admittedly decent bowl showing doesn’t cancel out the fact the unarguably WORST ACC team beat a middle of the pack SEC team. That Wyoming and LA Tech both not too hot in their non BCS conference both posted wins on SEC teams. It is infuriating to no end that SEC fans claim to have a good conference even on what is a markedly down year for them. Who cares about your conference wins when all the conference played trash, do you not see who they played?

Read Sagarin rankings!! He uses the only Data available to tell us Alabama played the 28th most difficult schedule in the nation why were they ranked 1 half the season? We then give Florida a 4th rating for SOS with Alabama and Oklahoma (two unscheduled games) the bulk of that fantastic ranking. They rank Duke over Auburn and Tennessee and Arkansas (that was the LOWEST acc team). Two of those hideous teams were vaunted SEC competition Florida faced, all three drove away coaches in the last 2 years (usually not the sign of stiff competition, one team even lost to a team that fired a coach!). And Florida State was the second best SEC non con opponent on the year by these rankings (scheduled), yes our 4 loss team. None of your “can’t know what your scheduling” excuses either, you certainly weren’t aiming high when the second highest team your conference faced was forced by the board of controllers (today’s board of regents -- by the way that is FACT) onto the schedule 50+ odd years ago. You aren’t aiming high with such wonders on your collective schedules as Wofford, Citadel, Georgia Southern, Norfolk State (the free wins taken by the SEC East). Samford, Appalachian State (For Florida’s SEC West opponents). This doesn’t include FBS wonders from the sunbelt such as North Texas or the various LA-LA and LA-MON or other nameless Louisiana teams, Doesn’t include double victories over down on their luck Tulane or beating less than exciting Memphis. How can we say a conference that doesn’t have any wonderful evidence of being strong is so strong? The beat each other? Someone had to win those games! Most of the teams that didn’t take a free win this year also missed bowl eligibility by one game (Arkansas, Tennessee, Auburn), or barely made it (Vanderbilt, Kentucky – Kudos to both, I mean that).

If none of THAT tells an interesting story consider that there are three quality wins in the entire SEC OOC schedule out of conference prior to a bowl game. By quality win I mean win that isn’t total and complete garbage, not quality win as in quality win. In the Sagarin top 50 the SEC beat 5 OOC and lost 6. I don’t think I’m missing anything there and people are welcome to double check those but that is 11 teams that even place in the top half of college football (roughly extending it out to 60 makes it 6-7) so out of 48 chances the sec scheduled a total of 13 teams in the top half of football and LOST more than half of those. Yes up until the bowl season it was hard to make an argument for SEC dominance. After the bowl season you add 6 wins, 2 losses to top 60 schools. I’m at a loss as to how we get to awesome strong SEC based on that. And that is the only thing you can base it on, saying the SEC is tough means they should have a dominant record not .571 (including all in the top 60) and you should probably actually play way more games of that caliber.

FSU_Ben · 10 months ago

My quality wins are FSU, Clemson and of course the glorious Miami. Those are the best 3...

Fsu comes in at 17 and Miami is 35. The other three wins below #35.

As to playing style I forgot to respond to: I don't mean style in a personal preference sort of way.

I'm talking god given talent. Tebow isn't amazingly fast and certainly is not a good passer (as one of the commenters during the NC game stated "is often said" about tebow a comment made after another poor pass was amazingly caught and followed by something like "in spite of that he does seem to get the ball where it needs to be" --Luck? Good Recievers? A little of the first and lot of the second IMO). When I saw Ward play you were impressed with his playing, with watching him play and this is difficult to communicate, when I see Tebow play I am impressed with his results. I am amazed he pulled this or that off, I was never amazed with Wards results I was amazed with his abilities. I am never amazed by Tebows abilities I am amazed by his results.

For Tebow I am saying
"WTF that was crappy tackleing"
"OMG he just carried two tacklers for 3 more yards"
"Gah damn that is a good reciever scooped that right before it hit the ground"

Ward was Finesse, true talent. Something you can't get from Tebow. Tebow has a grit and determination I wish every single player had at FSU. He plays that extra *"10th of a second", gives that extra effort. I remember Tebow's very first successful pass against LSU, it was a jump where his two feet nearly hit his own butt (real ugly girly jump) and the ball flies out wobbling all over very slowly and is caught (a prime example of luck) by a florida player (a three year old girl could have caught it, the luck was the player was wore a Florida Jersey). His passes are often, as I have said, at the ground or over the head and still caught, it's about a very talented well coached recieving corp. I never suggested Tebow was Florida's best player, Harvin is light years above him and will play in the NFL barring injuries. Tebow would be lucky to see the NFL, would furthur be lucky to play QB let alone start as one. Of course I (and many more objective people) might be wrong there, we shall see.

*From an ESPN book (college football encyclopedia) that cites a study that came up with the difference between winning and losing teams (the good and bad plays) as being "an extra 10th of a second worth of effort".